WoodCentral Forums

Est. 1998 — 27 years of woodworking knowledge

One last picture for reference...

Posts

One last picture for reference...

#1

One last picture for reference...

David Weaver

...OK, it won't be the last.

We are showing a lot of tool backs in pictures, and bevels and such.

In them are buffed edges, prior diamond edges, honing compounds, etc, but I have a feeling that a lot of people haven't worked with any of these. Because of when I started, the term "8000 grit waterstone" rings a bell.

This picture is the back of the same iron both on the very strong cutting 5 micron yellowcake, and then compared to the 8k kitayama stone (at one point it was sold as a 12k stone, but that may have been rosy by Japan Woodworker just to have something that looked higher in grit than a king.

It's a functional stone, but would be better for knives.......except......

...who knows what one would use a stone this fine on knives for now?


Re: One last picture for reference...

#2

see any faces?

David Weaver

see any faces in the little dots on the unicorned edge on the left?

I see faces on it. Two of them. Noticed them this morning adding this image as a reference for the article. Like unicorn creepies or something.

Re: One last picture for reference...

#3

Super dopper micrography...

Jim Matthews

[

It's a quantum entanglement image of an "Exploding Noema".

Re: One last picture for reference...

#4

Of interest.......

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

What abrasion preceded the refinement shown in the pictures? Helpful to knowing what these treatments did would be a picture of what the surface looked like before.

What I think I see in the buff is a rounding of the scratches made by whatever abrading preceded the buff. What I think I see in the 8000K picture is a scratch pattern of sharper "vees". What do you see?

Re: One last picture for reference...

#5

Washita.....

David Weaver

as usual, washita before the buffer.

What's observable at the edge of the waterstone blade is sometimes referred to as slurry dulling, where the loose particles on a stone (waterstone in this case) roll around and abrade the edge much more harshly (and more fractured looking) than the flat face.

One of the reasons I thought Nico was full of crap above before he was outed is,

1) nobody would lay a 50 degree flat bevel on a chisel. We just tested that. 34 held up well on the AI chisel and it still felt more dull than our chisels.

2) he said that he rolled a tip in a slurried suita. That's an aggressive stone - the shredded edge effect with something like that on such a small point of contact would be pretty gross compared to a hard fine stone with no slurry

at any rate, this washita pattern is what was on the back of the blade before the buffer:


It looks more coarse than the waterstone with wider flatter grooves, but they're not too far from each other. The washita works faster for me and the feel is better (no stone drying up, no flattening, etc).

Re: One last picture for reference...

#6

What I see....

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

Some occasional, what appear to be, deep scratches from some prior? step. Then a pattern that I would call, for want of a better word, "texture". I don't see any regular pattern to the surface left by the stone. I don't see any orderly parallel scratches like I would expect from an abrasive. I don't understand why it looks the way it looks.

In the prior pictures the scratch pattern is complex and different between the pictures. Presumably the scratches I see are what remain from the stone.?. Spatially, how is the steel being rubbed upon the abrasive? While there are collections of parallel scratches these collections seem randomly oriented on the right picture but mostly in one direction for the buff.

To ask the question again, what do you see in these pictures?

Re: One last picture for reference...

#7

circles...

David Weaver

since the buffing wheel will guarantee that the final scratches are in the direction of the iron length, I use it with circles as shown. I like scratches to terminate in the edge rather than running parallel to the edge, but this is a stone that works nicely with circles. Flattening backs of plane irons also is another thing that works well (especially in regard to finish level- easier to finish with some circles and then go to a stone than make deep lines and then go to a stone).

Below is the japanese chisel from our test - since the back didn't see the buffer for the first step, it is as flattened on the back before applying any specific bevel side treatment. IT appears that there's also a tiny bit of wire edge left dangling before the bevel side treatment is addressed (no surprise).

https://i.imgur.com/hxGkIoe.jpg

I don't know what it is about the washitas - they're sensitive to tool hardness (junky tools are cut too quickly by them but good tools are cut finely by them, but still efficiently). I use the one shown here before the buffer because it's good at back lapping - however one would want to define it, it's good at it. It's faster than an 8k waterstone, it seems to be little different in actual sharpness even when used alone, and the whole time you're using it, it's cutting. no checking for flatness, no adjusting slurries, no loading on the surface.

It's also faster than 1 micron diamond which is why I'm using it (nothing wrong with 1 micron diamond, but the fineness isn't needed if the buffing will be as much as shown in the photos, and no need for gadgets like rulers (I've got nothing against that kind of stuff, I just have trouble finding my shoes sometimes - not looking to find a ruler each time I sharpen. )

Re: One last picture for reference...

#8

Re: circles...

Steve Elliott

David,

The scale in the microscope image is labelled .005" and the bar has a center division equal in size to the ones at the ends. Is each segment .005" or is the whole bar .005?

Re: One last picture for reference...

#9

Re: circles...

David Weaver

The whole bar is .005". I couldn't get a good result labeling (or saving bold labeling) in my scope software and had to manually add a scale.

Top to bottom, most of the pictures are between 1.5 and 2 hundredths of an inch, depending on editing.

Re: One last picture for reference...

#10

why talking about washitas is confusing

David Weaver

I'm going to show two pictures from the washita - both were done on the same iron.

The first is the one provided earlier, when digging in. The objective in that case is to remove wear and prepare for the buffer, the wire edge remains at the edge.

The second picture is from the same stone on the same iron ( I do not abrade oilstones unless bevel cutting on razors, so neither of these is done "with a slurry", and I don't mix a designated razor bevel stone with other uses ). After digging in like the first picture, the follow-up is 10 seconds of light work on the back of the iron. The opposite side is prepared with plane uni method 1 (bevel side only) as I'm planing junk wood with knots and it comes into its own there.



These are the kinds of things that make it hard to answer questions about natural stones. Right now, I probably have 7 or 8 washitas, I don't have more than one of them because the extras serve any function, rather that they reward curiosity as a side hobby. Some are sort of like each other and others are much different. If one gets 50 and tries to separate them by some standard, you end up with three or four groups of stones, but then the characteristics of the finish of each is slightly different yet. Familiarity with a good one is more important than having an array.

The nature of the abrasive in these stones is softer than a hardness test would indicate the steel to be on most japanese chisels. The stone still cuts the chisel, it just cuts it finely. I have no idea exactly why technically, just what is. For someone skilled and with plainer steels, the feel of anything close to 62 hardness (-5 to perhaps +3) can be judged really well by these stones, and the system can be gamed to use the same stone to do different things on different tools, or even different things on the same tools. A $50 washita will match the finest of japanese suita stones I've come across (which is many). This is offputting for some, especially if they get their information from dealers or gurus. It can also do semi finish work well. If most people sharpening japanese tools were on the clock, they would probably use a soft arkansas or a washita stone that had been abraded after a 1k stone and then go directly to their finest finish stone. You can demonstrate something like that, but you can't make a dent to someone who has already determined that something different can't possibly be better.

We don't consider the effect of hardness and pressure on stones that much because we don't necessarily have to. It can be useful, but it's hard to communicate. Where this really becomes useful is in setting up razors, but even with folks who claim to know a lot about honing razors, the discussion falls flat because there are folks who get paid to hone and they get confused with what's correct and what's good for them to keep promoting after they've dug a trench in the past (as in, if someone has a menu of stones they want people to purchase and they have a method that they use day to day, that becomes the correct method. This sounds familiar with some woodworking gurus. You can find someone who failed at something and point at it as that. One of my favorite things that I've ever seen Warren say can be paraphrased to "don't confuse you can't do it with it can't be done". I'd go a measure further than that, which I've learned to tell myself - don't confuse things that you don't want to do with things that you can't do, because you're one step away from telling people they can't do things you don't want to do. Like simple solutions for clearance on bevel up planes.

All that said, while I find these things immensely interesting, I can't much argue that except or razors, the buffer has kind of obsoleted a lot of my exploration in this stuff. :\

Re: One last picture for reference...

#11

bewildering pictures

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

I would love to see a high res SEM picture of this surface. I can't rationalize what I am seeing to be the result of abrasive points milling metal away as the metal passes over points. Is metal being moved as well as being removed, some combination of abrasive "plowing" as well as milling away shavings as aluminum oxide would do?

Re: One last picture for reference...

#12

Re: bewildering pictures

David Weaver

Some of both may be occurring. This process does blacken the stones, so some metal is being removed. I never examined the mechanism, just the results. I think proving mechanisms gets really difficult. .

I cleaned this stone off and then took a picture of the swarf on the stone after doing the same thing - 10 seconds brisk, 10 seconds light.



This iron was already polished. If I'd had one with deeper scratches on the back, there would be more black (as in, the abrasive is strong enough that it'll quickly take ridges off of abrasive grooves, but once the grooves are gone, it's not that strong at cutting a polished surface of hard steel.

It'll abrade sorby chisels fast all the time, though.

Re: One last picture for reference...

#13

Re: Washita.....

Nico

I never said I use a 50 degree flat bevel. What I said was that I can clearly see that the very tip of your buffed edge is closer to 45 degrees, maybe even 50 degrees which is why it's so durable. As for suitas, they come from soft and coarse to very hard and very fine. The one I have is an extremely hard Okudo hon suita in the 20k range. It needs a slurry or it doesn't really do anything. But even the slurry is exceedingly fine. And what the hell are you people talking about outing me and being banned from other forums?

Re: One last picture for reference...

#14

Re: Washita.....

David Weaver

First, you're talking about winston's pictures and suggesting they're mine. you missed the boat, or even a picture of a boat that someone else made and you claimed you did.

Second, I sold japanese stones. There are no stones with particles that one would equate to 20k grit. that's an old wives tale. The smallest particles in any japanese stones are around 3 microns.

When you slurry the stones, you give yourself a hard surface to push a large aggressive particle against. that makes no sense on a small contact point.

The idea that the slurry breaks down into tiny particles is also false, though it can become muddy enough to suspend a flat surface away from a stone. yet again, that doesn't work with small contact points.

I've had 8 white okudo stones and fineness isn't their virtue. Cutting speed is their virtue. Any that are exceedingly fine and hard are not worth having, but once slurried, no japanese natural stone is really that fine. The stones that are intended for fine work generally don't shed particles and they're not particularly good for tools.

You've attempted this gimmick in too many places (the boats, the japanese tools ,etc), it's not going to fly here. We generally discuss each others' work and you're already untrustworthy for that given you've been outed posting others' work.

Re: One last picture for reference...

#15

Re: Washita.....

Nico

You are correct, that was a picture Winston posted. And there most certainly are natural stones from Japan in the 20k range. That you can't get them doesn't mean they don't exist.

"The idea that the slurry breaks down into tiny particles is also false"

Nope, very true. The slurry most certainly breaks down. Try it with a Botan nagura and keep going. You'll see the scratch pattern gets finer. It also applies to suitas, even very hard ones.

"I've had 8 white okudo stones and fineness isn't their virtue."

Ah, I see. The 8 stones you had are the standard for the hundreds of thousands of Okudos that've been sold through the decades. Believe it or not but the best stones are kept in Japan. You have to have contacts in Japan and build a friendship with certain people to be able to get a hold of them as a foreigner. I can guarantee you were not friends with the right people.

And again, wtf are you talking about. I've never posted photos of work that wasn't mine on any forum. The only place I've ever posted and still post photos is a Dutch Facebook group. If you want to accuse me of something you also have to be able to prove it. So, go ahead and post irrefutable evidence I am who you think I am. Otherwise shut up and stop the defamation.

Re: One last picture for reference...

#16

Re: Washita.....

David Weaver

not interested - you don't know what you're talking about, I doubt you have an okudo suita (i've never heard anyone who actually uses natural japanese stones use the term "hon", to begin with . it's generic), and none of us has any reason to believe anything you say because you showed up here with ridiculing posts.

Most people coming here with any competence show something they've made, and not something that will come back attributable to something else in a google image search.

👍 This page answered my questions

Your vote helps other woodworkers quickly find the answers and techniques that actually work in the shop.