Small Tenon Saw--rip or crosscut?

Chris Schwarz on saws *LINK*

David Cockey

>Have a look at this article by Chris Schwarz.

What do you expect to use the saw for? Sawing tenons, cutting pieces to length or ???


Understanding Western Backsaws

Re: Small Tenon Saw--rip or crosscut?

Alan DuBoff

>No, IMO you should get a crosscut to have. I advocate using the proper saw for the job, if you're cutting across the grain, use a crosscut, and if you're cutting with the grain use a rip.

While many folks use a fine rip for doing crosscut, I don't recommend that myself, as it is not the right tooth to cut across the grain and will tear it up more than you would by using a crosscut tooth.

Everyone should have a crosscut saw, if for nothing else but to use with a bench hook.

Re: Small Tenon Saw--rip or crosscut?

Stephen Shepherd in the State of Deseret

>I agree Alan, use the right saw for the right job. I think I just figured out why they made backed saws, so they could have thinner blades and the back kept them from bending. So I can see having one for crosscutting, although I don't like their weight nor that back thing.

As far as ripping, there is historic record that shops did have backed saws resharpened to rip, but unless you are cutting angled grain, it is much faster and easier to use a chisel and split out the cheeks rather than rip them.

On big door tenons a backed saw just wouldn't work to rip the cheeks. I have done some large dovetails and M&T on my workbench with a couple of small unbacked saws with straight handles, one cross cut the other rip (which I used on the dovetails) and they worked just fine. I also used them to cut some dovetails in 1/8" pine, which I fashioned into an eyeglass case, linen hinge covered in old paper.

If the saw gets too heavy, I need someone on the other end.

There sure a lot of those old tenon saws around and a few of them look like they were actually used (did I just say that?).

Stephen

Stephen

So................

richard jones

>I do have an old 16" Disston, maybe I'll give that a tune up and sharpening and see how I like it.

Use is mostly for M&T, some cutting to length with a bench hook.

Thanks.

rich

Re: Small Tenon Saw--rip or crosscut?

Adam Cherubini

>Richard,

If you want your rip saw to cross cut, you're going to have to do things to it that will degrade its performance as a rip saw. If the saw is long and your stock is narrow, you might not mind the performance hit. Like everything, as you move toward the corners of the envelop, you begin to recognize the inadequacies of your equipment more and more. And that's what'll happen to a saw like this.

The guys in Wmsburg don't have any x-cut filed saws. So what you are saying is totally do-able. I don't like using these compromised tools. That just isn't what woodworking with hand tools should be about in my opinion. It sorta takes the joy out of the work. I love using tools that work great!

Adam

Yes, sharpen it up xcut and try it!

Alan DuBoff

>All you need is a file, just take a rip and file it into a xcut and try that out, you'll find that it works well most likely.

Don't be too concerned over the teeth, if they aren't perfect, it most likely will not matter. Just try it as an experiment and let us know how you do. I'd like to hear myself.

If you'd like some pointers/links/tips on sharpening, don't hesitate to ask, that is how folks learn after all.

Re: Small Tenon Saw--rip or crosscut?

Alan DuBoff

>Stephen wrote:

"I think I just figured out why they made backed saws, so they could have thinner blades and the back kept them from bending. So I can see having one for crosscutting, although I don't like their weight nor that back thing."

But the back does help to try and keep them straight, and even so, many get bent over the years, but in some cases the back will help or allow one to straighten one out.

I have never had a problem with the backs, mostly that is all I use is saws with backs on them.

However, I wanted to point out that many of the smaller and more appropriate saws for joinery had a much more petite profile to them, such as dovetail saws. There are not a lot of vintage dovetail saws from the 1700s/1800s/1900s ironically, and I surmise that to be because saws were not as affordable for folks in those days. People didn't have the luxury of having a full set of saws, so many folks would sacrifice and get a more practical saw, such as a carcass or sash saw that could function well as an all around saw, as well as doing dovetails or other finer joinery as well. But the plates are thicker and they do act differently...in many cases. In this regard, maybe some saws with backs on them wouldn't get the same reaction from you.

I'm sure that shops doing cabinet work would have full sets of saws for their workers, but I suspect that each woodworker didn't have a complete set of saws to themselves.

JoelM points out some interesting things on his web site in regard to the Grammercy dovetail saw, and I agree with some of it most certainly. I only know from looking over old saws, trying to compare them, trying to understand from a real world perspective, so take my comments with a grain of salt. Joel can add the history of books to the same. I don't buy into the fine toothing of the dovetail saws though, I find a point that it really helps to have larger teeth, depending on the woods being worked.

There are a lot of interesting topics to discuss, but with Schwarz's article coming out on different classes of cuts, I suspect that is what the majority of folks will be talking about in regards to handsaws...doncha know that Schwarz guy is like E.F. Hutton...*lol*

Alan......

richard jones

>Fortunately, I got taught by An Old Guy on saw sharpening, so pretty well up on that, altho' I seem to need quite a bit more light than I used to.........:)

Interesting fellow, my mentor, he grew up with dad and uncounted # of brothers, had to go to the woods in the morning to use a crosscut saw to cut the trees to MAKE the timber that they used in their carpentry, mostly house building. I once questioned him as to his thoughts on the biggest innovation/invention that he saw since he got started in the business and he said: Electricity, without a doubt. And here I am, 30 years later, getting back into hand tools. Thanks, Jake......... I am so lucky that I got to work with him for quite a few years, and we did specialty stuff, lots of trim, stairways, rails, round stuff, the stuff that the other guys didn't want to or couldn't do. Some really oddball stuff. Great education. Lots of good stories about Mr. B.........

I'll keep you posted on the saws, thanks for the help. What a great resource this place is!!!

rich in va

Further......

richard jones

>I forgot, I got his old Disston 3D upon his death, his wife just sort of knew that I should get that, even tho' her two sons told her not to. We used to spend quite a bit of time talking about old tools.

Rich

Re: Further......

Alan DuBoff

>That is just nice that you got a Disston 3D from the guy, very nice vise, although I've been pondering about designing a new vise.

Re: Small Tenon Saw--rip or crosscut?

Andrew Lunn

>Hi Rich,

I actually think a crosscut saw would do better double duty than a rip saw, IF you were to have just one. But it would be a lot nicer to have two. Just my $.02. I also don't think the crosscut saw would need to be as deep as the rip tenon, so I don't know that you'd need two of the exact same saw just filed differently, but actually two different saws.

Re: Small Tenon Saw--rip or crosscut?

Vince G

>Stephen Shepherd wrote: "...but unless you are cutting angled grain, it is much faster and easier to use a chisel and split out the cheeks rather than rip them."

Some of us (specifically me) are a bit slow on the uptake, so you could you possibly elaborate on this? Do you saw the shoulders with a x-cut and then use nothing more than a chisel to remove the waste? Do you start chiseling just from the mark left by the marking gauge, or do you deepen the mark first? Is this a time-honored technique?

Or have I totally misunderstood?

Anyway, I've got a bunch of tenons to cut on my current project, and my only backsaw is x-cut, so I'm up for suggestions.

How I cut tenons.

Stephen Shepherd in the State of Deseret

>I use my small unbacked crosscut saw to make the shoulder cuts to the depth lines put on by the mortise gauges. Using the gauge from the money side to mark both mortises and tenons.

I then go to school on the grain by taking just a 16th inch chip and watching the grain then I work down with the chisel. Turn over and do the same thing on the other side. I use a wide chisel, sometimes as wide as the tenon but not always.

I then will use a rebate plane to smooth up or perhaps just a cabinet rasp to smooth down and rough up the tenons preparing them for gluing. I also will use a toothing plane to level off or true the tenon and it leaves keying marks for glue.

If the grain dives towards the shoulder then I chip out until it is nearly at the line then work out from the shoulder with a wide chisel to pare off the tenons.

This soulds like a lot of work but it actually is probably faster than sawing, especially if you have cooperative grain.

Stephen

Re: Small Tenon Saw--rip or crosscut?

David Cockey

>Adam, do you have and use cross-cut saws? Any idea what 18th cabinet shops had? Presumably the folks at Williamsburg don't have cross-cut saws because the don't believe they are authentic for the type of shop they are portraying.

Managed to steal.................

richard jones

>A Disston miter saw from a Millers Falls 15 1/2 Langdon miter box from my dad. 16" blade, 2 1/2" width, so it should do fine for what I think I want.

After just a bit of cleaning, will sharpen it up and see what happens.

Medallion dates it "between the wars"..............The Langdon miter box was in their 1939 catalog, so not sure how to pinpoint the date any further. Even has part of the sticker still on the handle, so I doubt it saw much use. Came from a machinist friend of my dad's, and he "didn't like wood."

Good thread, thanks for all the info.

rich

Re: Small Tenon Saw--rip or crosscut?

ThomD

>"I think I just figured out why they made backed saws, so they could have thinner blades and the back kept them from bending."

You just figured that out?

"As far as ripping, there is historic record that shops did have backed saws resharpened to rip, but unless you are cutting angled grain, it is much faster and easier to use a chisel and split out the cheeks rather than rip them."

I'm not sure, I think ripping straight to the line is faster a lot of the time. Also a lot of traditional cabinet work uses species of wood that do not have early and late wood due to equatorial growing conditions. I don't have enough experience with these woods, but such as it is I like sawing them. For one thing grain often doesn't visibly exist to guide you as to where you can split it, let alone allow it to split where you want it to.

Leaving that, I think some advocates like Frid said you only needed a rip, I think he was most likely talking about cutting joinery though. Where the low set, and inline forces leave a good finish. I can't imagine cutting firewood or busting out parts without properly configured saws. SO that would be a "yes" to rip only in the right circumstances. Keep in mind there are all sorts of intermediate teeth, not just rip or crosscut.

Re: Small Tenon Saw--rip or crosscut?

ThomD

>If it wasn't authentic to use CCs in the cabinet shops did they not use them for busting up logs and firewood? I would find that hard to believe, but am no expert on such maters myself. Are we saying that CCs hadn't been invented, or weren't authentic due to lack of preference?

I use both types myself, but a case can be made for rip only. The main case made for CC is that it makes the cut easier, not the result better. CCs make for easy cutting, but they don't really make nicer parts alwasy. If you incise lines you probably won't get tear-out from the surface CCing with a rip, and beyond that rip saws cut very well and generally in joinery will have nice minimal set and more room for the dust in deep cuts. As long as cut quality is good you don't have to change the saw all the time and productivity might increase. In joinery size work a little extra push might not be a big deal.

My Dad said that in Grandad's shop the morning started with hand ripping stock. I think the existence of rip saws often comes as a bit of a surprise to most modern workers. Almost everyone has a CC for the yard, but rip saws are weird. How many Joes have a rip blade for their table saw. But in the cabinet shops probably more time was spent ripping than CCing, and they may have come to trust it.

Re: How I cut tenons.

Vince G

>Very interesting. Thanks for the reponse. I'm going to give it a try. I've already tried cutting the shoulders with a saw and then hogging off the waste with a shoulder plane (and other planes if necessary), which seems to work wonderfully well. I then rough up the tenon a bit, as you do, with a rasp. I've never tried using a chisel to remove the waste, however.

In the end, though, I'll probably have to find a proper rip backsaw, and give it a try. There must be a reason everyone has done it this way for centuries.

Re: Small Tenon Saw--rip or crosscut?

Adam Cherubini

>I have 2 x-cut filed saws. A back saw and a 20" panel saw.

There is no information about saw filing in the 18th c. Early 19th images and sales info seem to indicate only rip teeth were offered. Based on this, the Hay shop has chosen to only use rip teeth. They find that finer rip teeth with lots or rake are fine for cross cutting. They also knife lines and clean up end grain with planes. I think they have the wrong answer on their test papers.

I asked Jane Rees about her thoughts on the subject. She suspects that only rip teeth were supplied but that craftsmen changed them to whatever they needed. So they probably did have cross cut filed saws. The question is which ones were filed cross cut?

Adam

Re: Small Tenon Saw--rip or crosscut?

wilbur

>"I asked Jane Rees about her thoughts on the subject. She suspects that only rip teeth were supplied but that craftsmen changed them to whatever they needed. So they probably did have cross cut filed saws. The question is which ones were filed cross cut?"

Umm...the saws they wanted to use for making cross cuts in wood?

Re: Small Tenon Saw--rip or crosscut?

Warren in Lancaster, PA

>For a worker who pays more than an hour's wages for a saw ( in the eighteenth century they paid up to a weeks worth), it is not reasonable to just buy two of every saw. A craftsman purchasing a new saw has to consider what saw gives him the most versatility, a crosscut saw or a rip saw of another size. I use 12 saws in my work. Two are filed crosscut, and of course some of the ripsaws are used for both ripping and crosscutting.

You're kidding... right?

David Barnett - SW Florida

>"I think I just figured out why they made backed saws, so they could have thinner blades and the back kept them from bending."

Sometimes I find it hard to tell, heh. But then I'm still baffled by 'nib theory'.

Tage Frid advocated converting crosscut saws to rip. When I bought my Frid-type bowsaw nearly two decades ago, I tried it cross before filing it rip. Seemed to work faster filed rip even on crosscuts so I left it that way. I'd say the thinness of the blade contributes to the ease of using it for crosscuts. I've cut 'utility' DTs and M&Ts with it. No problems. When I bought a spare blade I tried ripping with it still filed crosscut. Not so good. I put the rip blade back.

I prefer having both cross and rip, though, and although I've converted one Disston #4 to rip (for DTs before I bought my IT), I don't foresee doing so again.

I wondered why Early Eastern Furniture was so long

Stephen Shepherd in the State of Deseret

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