worm holes in plow fence

Don't use epoxy

Stephen Shepherd in the State of Deseret

>Jack,

Epoxy is a bad choice for old tools, besides being inappropriate it is a hard immovable plastic that just doesn't work well with wood, as wood moves and plastic doesn't.

You can use traditional fillers, hide glue and wood flour or linseed oil and whiting (calcium carbonate). The latter is mixed to the consistancy of putty and used to fill holes, centuries old recipe. It does take some time to dry. The hide glue/wood flour is probably not appropriate as the surface wouldn't be as slippery as it needs to be and can get tacky in very humid areas.

A good solution would be to glue a thin slip say 1/8" of beech to the face of the fence, with hide glue of course. Lightly sand or scrape the face of the fence to insure a good glue joint. I have done this to tools in the past and it does not effect their overall value. All of the original is still there.

Cutting off the damaged area will effect the value of the piece and adding on an 1/8 inch to the fence will be insignificant to the performance. The new work can be stained so it won't stand out.

Stephen

Re: Don't use epoxy

Jack Guzman from Maine

>Maybe a little of both. I could fill the holes with flour/glue then add a piece.Some of the hole is pretty deep.I wouldn't want to leave a hollow spot.---Jack

Re: worm holes in plow fence

Marv

>Jack,

Is it possible to cut off the wormy part for the full length of the plane and glue on a whole new piece? It would be less noticable that it was repaired.

Epoxy is available in many different mixtures. Not all epoxies are rigid. You could mix sawdust with epoxy, make a paste and make it resemble the original wood. Epoxy is one the best adhesives around. When you use a filler, it shrinks very little depending on how much filler you use. For a small repair such as you have there, I don't think that shrinkage will be an issue.

Marv

Bad advice

Stephen Shepherd in the State of Deseret

>Marv,

Nothing personal but that is just bad advice, no reason to distroy the value of an antique tool by following your suggestion.

Using modern materials on old objects is never good advice.

If you think epoxy is one of the best adhesives around you probably haven't tried hide glue. I am sure epoxy is all right for gluing petrochemical plastics and other modern materials for which it may be appropriate and have its applications. It should never be used to repair items of antiquity.

Stephen

Re: Bad advice...oh, really?

Marv

>Stephen,

Nothing personal and with all due respect.... but...........................

The man wants to fill some holes in his antique plane. Doesn't need to be a huge project. Lets allow him to decide which suggestion is best for him.

I suggested two things....one was to remove the full length of the damaged area and replace it with new wood. The other was to use a substance that he can use the same or similar type wood sawdust as a filler. Once the holes are filled and finished off it will look far better than it does now. Whether he uses hide glue or epoxy it will still look much better. No matter what he does, it will still be obvious that it was repaired. As an antique it will still look repaired so why not do it the simplest way? If I were doing it, I would use my first suggestion, that is if it's possible.

Regardless of which method he chooses, he should drill holes in a test piece and experiment to see which method he likes best.

I can't see that my advice is bad and yours is good or visa versa. Reminds me of my tobacco chewing/spitting Grandmother who told me if I didn't hold a hoe like she did I was holding it wrong even though we both got rid of the weeds in the garden. If the old gal hadn't been so stubborn and bullheaded in her ways, maybe, just maybe, I as a young boy might have taught her something new and better.

We are starting to get into that age old discussion as to what to do and how far to go to restore an antique. To a large extent it's strictly a matter of opinion and preference and even skill level. I have no intentions of getting into a pissing contest on that subject.

As I've said before, you are the woodMaster and I am totally unqualified to argue the fine points with you. As I've done all my working life, I will continue to approach an issue using logic and good common sense.

Respectfully,

Marv

Reality check, Stephen... *LINK*

David Barnett - SW Florida

>Some of your comments in this thread appear harsh to me. As you say, "nothing personal", but "Using modern materials on old objects is never good advice" seems a bit misguided and absolutist. While I'm sure you believe what you said, your opinion does not accord with enlightened modern praxis of contemporary conservationists.

I learned several years ago from WoodCentral's own Sam Simpson that vinyl acetates mixed with various bulking agents are de rigour among furniture conservators for stabilizing woodworm damage, often treating such damage with injections of modern penetrating resins before filling and surfacing, and sometimes following methyl bromide treatment to deter further wood borers. This is similar to the conservation protocols for wood substrate paintings, as well.

As much as I respect and use hide glue, shellac, and other traditional resins, I try to keep a pragmatic open mind regarding tools, techniques, and materials, and urge others to consider doing likewise. It's not the adherence to old ways* that concerns me, but a slavish and dogmatic attitude that slams the door on further enquiry.

As for epoxies, -- "...it is a hard immovable plastic that just doesn't work well with wood, as wood moves and plastic doesn't" -- you might be surprised. There are epoxies you can tie in a knot when cured.

*of which your knowledge is truly astounding

_______________________

Here's a superb reference for museum furniture conservation. Pages 576-577 cover resins and bulking agents.


Conservation of Furniture - Rivers, Umney

Not bad advice, just not to your taste...

John in New Mexico

>Nothing wrong with your perspective, but its not for all of us. Marv's advice was perhaps a bit more appropriate to the question, as it takes actually addresses Jack's specific question, which concerns epoxy.

Epoxy works great on wood, especially slow cure types like West system (I've poured a lot of that on mesquite). The 5 minute epoxies can be a pain in my experience, though I do like the Pacer Technologies 5 minute avialable from HD of all places. For the quantity you're going to need, that's what I'd use. Let it puddle on the holes, use tape to form a dam on the edge if needed. Putting it under a strong light bulb speeds curing and tends to make it harder. Cut the excess off with a really sharp chisel, or if its too hard to cut cleanly, scraping works well. Sand paper will also work, but I prefer scraping it. The only times I've had epoxy fail is on woods like lignum vitae and the like, but them woods are hard to glue anyway.

Myself, I'd probably glue (yes, with hide glue!) a wear strip on, either rosewood, mesquite, or whatever I've got around - never have beech, but that's the only reason I wouldn't use it. If only I had some boxwood!

Epoxy, expressly for repairing wood. *LINK*

Marv

>Jack,

Check this website out. Some good information there.

Includes a testimonial video.

Marv


Epoxy for making wood repairs.

I am in a minority

Stephen Shepherd in the State of Deseret

>when it comes to traditional conservation, but I am not alone and there is a growing number of conservators and curators who agree that only traditional materials be used.

As for 'de rigour among furniture conservators', so was British Museum Leather Dressing, (no longer recommended), micro crystyline waxes and ask the Dutch Government how they feel about PEG and the Great Ship Vasa. The National Park Service no longer uses PEG, some are actually using linseed oil, imagine that.

A friend of mine quoined the term 'white man syndrom', we can do it better than they did in the past. It is not our job to do it better, it is our job to preserve the past. And when you introduce modern material, you forever change history and part of the past has been lost.

I do appologize to Marv and any others whose sensibilities I may have offended, but there is only so much of that stuff out there, they are not making antiques anymore.

Preserving the past is no easy matter. But if we want to preserve objects so that future generations can enjoy, use and learn from them we shouldn't change their history. It is so easy just to use appropriate materials.

Stephen

I have some..

Jack Guzman from Maine

>I have some boxwood. I was actually thinking about that possibility today after reading some of these replies.---Jack

Thanks ..

Jack Guzman from Maine

>I appreciate all the input. I now have enough information to figure out how to fix this. When I do it I'll post my method and result.I'm still not sure at this point what I'm going to do.---Jack

Re: Thanks ..

Marv

>Jack,

You might first try the epoxy and sawdust method, then if that doesn't work out for you, then you can always add new wood as Stephen suggested.

I can't disagree with Stephen regarding antique tools,etc. Like he said, "they aren't make'n antiques anymore." It is always better if we can return those that require repair to as close to their original condition as possible. Lots of methods, both new and old are being used these days. It's a good general rule. I have some old handsaws that I won't do anything to, while I have others that I strip down and totally refinish. I guess it's a matter of personal preference and how much reconditioning needs to be done and of course it depends on the type of tool. An old rusty saw cannot be be made to look new again. It can be made to function as new but it will never look new. But new isn't always the goal. Often times it's just repairing or replacing the broken or missing parts for the purpose of inviting that "awwww" factor, Like restoring an old car for example.

Good luck with your fix..

Marv