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Ever bought a tool that makes you feel un-worthy?

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Ever bought a tool that makes you feel un-worthy?

#1

Ever bought a tool that makes you feel un-worthy?

Denis Ch�nard, Orl�ans, Ont.

>Well, I bought two...

I got a call at work from my wife:

- Honey, there's a package for you in the mail...

- What? I didn't order anything!

- It comes from Japan...

- Really? I didn't expect that until next spring!


Two Golden Dragon dozuki by Yataiki, one rip and the other crosscut, 240 mm, hardwood teeth.

I spent a good part of the evening awestruck by the craftsmanship of these saws... That one person can make a saw like that, all by hand, to that level of refinement, is just overwhelming... The picture obviously doesn't make justice to the saws, I need a better photography setup...

Right now I don't dare use these saws. I don't feel worthy of them... And since these were made by the man some deem to be the best Japanese saw maker of all time, and that I probably wouldn't be able to get another saw from him given his age (he's supposed to have been retired for a few years already), I sure don't want to screw these up...

I've never felt that way about a tool before... And I'm quite comfortable with the machine-made dozuki saws that I use routinely, but if I did something wrong to these two saws I would feel absolutely miserable...

Does anyone have any pointers on how to use these saws, compared to the machine made ones? I've broken teeth on my first Japanese saw (actually Korean, sold by LV, I've beaten that saw pretty bad out of ignorance), but this has never happened on the other saws I've bought since. I've read that handmade saws are more "fragile", is that the case?

Wiley, fancy a ski trip up north? I could use your guidance :-)

DC

Re: Ever bought a tool that makes you feel un-worthy?

#2

Re: Ever bought a tool that makes you feel un-wort

wilbur

>Send them to me. I'll break them in for you. :@)

Re: Ever bought a tool that makes you feel un-worthy?

#3

Re: Ever bought a tool that makes you feel un-wort

Stuart Hough

>Denis,

First, you enter the shop, after taking off your shoes, and light some incense (preferably mulberry). You then proceed to the straw mat in front of the shrine and prostrate yourself. You then beg forgivness from the Wood god for your pretentious belief that you should ever have deigned to own these saws. Next you ask for guidance from said Wood god, to protect the saws from any harm that one so unworthy as yourself might cause, and then ask for an amount equal to th postage to Florence, SC and ship them to me . I'll "protect" them for you!!!

P.S. They DO look wonderful!

Re: Ever bought a tool that makes you feel un-worthy?

#4

Re: Ever bought a tool that makes you feel un-wort

Dean Lapinel

>Denis,

Fine craftsmanship is really something that mesmerizes me as well. Even though you are Canadian I know you are worthy :)

Dean

Re: Ever bought a tool that makes you feel un-worthy?

#5

Re: Ever bought a tool that makes you feel un-wort

Norman (Ottawa, Ont.)

>Denis,

Maybe you should leave the handles off so you don't accidentally pick them up and use them :)

Kidding aside, they're awfully nice, I'd be careful myself, especially since I know what you've paid for them.

Norman

Re: Ever bought a tool that makes you feel un-worthy?

#6

Ohh ... lame drive by!

Paul Kierstead

>That is a sad shot at a drive by. I am hoping you'll bring 'em around to the club meeting (if you can let them out of the house); I'd love to see them, I'll bet they are amazing. I really love craftsmanship taken to the very extreme.

Re: Ever bought a tool that makes you feel un-worthy?

#7

Re: Ever bought a tool that makes you feel un-wort

Dean Lapinel

>Seriously now Denis,

Any chance of taking more photos, close shots of the saws. I don't think I'll ever see one and I know I can't buy one.

You must have one heck of a wife to let you buy those! :)

Re: Ever bought a tool that makes you feel un-worthy?

#8

To clarify ...

Paul Kierstead

>it is the cover story for the gloat that is lame. The saws I'll bet are fabulous!

Re: Ever bought a tool that makes you feel un-worthy?

#9

You are un-worthy....

Scott Burr in Ben Lomond CA

>And you never will be. Package them up and send them to me pronto!

All kidding aside, you'll get use to them. Just play them gently or you'll have some very expensive scrapers on your hands.

Re: Ever bought a tool that makes you feel un-worthy?

#10

Re: Ever bought a tool that makes you feel un-wort

Wiley Horne

>Denis,

Congratulations!! I am really happy for you.

Here's what to do:

1. Let the saw do the cutting. You're the servant. Relax.

2. Keep the saw and your arm moving in a single plane. Don't pull the saw around the corner of the work.

3. Use a firm but relaxed grip. No 'tight handshake' or death grip.

4. Let the saw do the cutting. Unclench your teeth.

My experience is that Yataiki-san tooths these saws for precision and control. You won't find raker teeth on the cross-cut, or a real aggressive rake on the rip saw.

How do you know if you're doing it right? The sawn surface will be smooth to the eye and touch. Relax and let the saw fall through the work, and the sawn surface will be smooth.

Really happy for you.

Wiley

Re: Ever bought a tool that makes you feel un-worthy?

#11

Re: Ever bought a tool that makes you feel un-wort

MikeW

>Extremely NICE, Denis!

To add the advice Wiley gave--and correct me if I am wrong, please Wiley--is that only hold the saw with enough hand/squeezing pressure to maintain the lightest of grips.

For me, if I hold a Japanese saw too lightly, the hand slips.

A bit snugger--just a bit--and I can actually feel the saw ever so faintly vibrate as the teeth are skipping on the annual rings. But it is cutting.

If I hold a skosh snugger as if I was pulling a heavy needle through canvas, the saw cuts ever so sweetly. None of the ever so faint vibration mentioned. Just a smooth slicing.

Hold too hard and, well, a loss of control, possible damage and a far worse finish in the cut.

Use them!

Take care, Mike

Re: Ever bought a tool that makes you feel un-worthy?

#12

Re: Ever bought a tool that makes you feel un-wort

Brad in Ottawa

>Congratulations on the new additions to the family! I am sure that you will be using them in no time. Be sure to let us know how they work.

Brad

PS - Maybe you could use them in next year's OWA 2x4 competition. I saw your winning entry in this year's contest at the Ottawa Woodworking Show today. Amazing what you did with a 2x4!

Re: Ever bought a tool that makes you feel un-worthy?

#13

Great characterization Mike, and

Wiley Horne

>from a true saw master. I agree right down the line with you. Including.....to use them!

Wiley

Re: Ever bought a tool that makes you feel un-worthy?

#14

Re: Great characterization Mike, and

Denis Ch�nard, Orl�ans, Ont.

>Thanks for the advice, I appreciate :-)

I feel very comfortable with the current saws I have in use, to be honest with you, if you asked me how I hold the saw while cutting I wouldn't be able to tell you... I just go at it, while making sure I use a straight stroke, and the results are usually what I am looking for. And I let the saw do the cut, not forcing it in any way...

I'm basically concerned about the difference in approach between the quality machine-made, impulse-hardened saws I've been using so far with great satisfaction, and these traditional saws. I guess I'll find out as I go, but any pointers are appreciated... The teeth on these saws look so fragile, I'm just afraid to destroy a piece of art (I know these saws are intended to be used, I just can't shake that feeling for now...)

Now for the silly question of the day, how do I get the saws set in their handles? Do I just slip them in, then rap the heel of the handle on some surface? I can't think of any other way...

Thanks for bearing with me :-)

DC

Re: Ever bought a tool that makes you feel un-worthy?

#15

Re: Great characterization Mike, and

Wiley Horne

>Denis,

I know that feeling. Well.

The handles....first, try 'em the way you said, where you start the shank, work it in by hand as far as you can, then rap the butt of the handle down on the bench with the saw aimed up vertically at the ceiling. If the handle is pre-fitted, it will seat itself this way, which is the way you described. Try both the possible orientations.

If the handle is not pre-fitted, there are two ways to go. One, you can burn it in, which is the pro way. Moving quickly past that one, the second way is to get a key hole saw, and worry the handle slot out to where it's a bit larger, and just go by trial and error til you have a fit--you can tell by inspection of the shank and by feel where it's hanging up. The third way is make a custom handle.

Lemme know if the handle is not pre-fitted.

Wiley

Re: Ever bought a tool that makes you feel un-worthy?

#16

I just spent some time in heaven...

Denis Ch�nard, Orl�ans, Ont.

>And it was lovely...

I did as you suggested, and tried to fit the shank in the handle. One orientation went deeper than the other, so I went that way and rapped the heel of the handle on my bench. 12 "shots" and the saw is well seated. So I guess the handle was fitted (how do they do that?).

Then I tried the (rip) saw on some endgrain bird's eye maple (very dense sample). I used my LV rip dozuki (which is the best saw that I have ever tried until now, and I sampled quite a few) as a benchmark. Whereas the LV chattered on the wood (I had my work piece quite elevated from my vise, and the LV balks a bit at that), the Yataiki was as smooth as silk... It makes a thicker kerf than the LV, yet seems as fast cutting.

After making a series of cuts on end grain, I crosscut those off (with my Z-saw), and the surface left by the Yataiki felt as if it had been planed, incredibly smooth...

Heaven, Nirvana, whatever, this saw is worth everything I paid for it, and more... Can't wait to try the crosscut one...

DC

Re: Ever bought a tool that makes you feel un-worthy?

#17

Re: Ever bought a tool that makes you feel un-wort

Jeff Weaver

>Denis,

Lee Valley calls the Korean saw you mention their "best value" in a dozuki. Since the term "best value" is always a strong selling point for me, that particular saw is on my hint list for Christmas. This will be my first Japanese-style saw. Anything in particular about that saw that stands out, good or bad, from other Japanese saws you've used? Having no experience with them, I figure that one is a good place to start. Do you agree or should I pick another?

As for your new saws, you are obviously onto something way beyond me. Good luck with them. Didn't mean to hijack your thread.

Thanks,

Jeff Weaver

Re: Ever bought a tool that makes you feel un-worthy?

#18

Re: Ever bought a tool that makes you feel un-wort

Denis Ch�nard, Orl�ans, Ont.

>Hi Jeff,

That LV saw was the first Japanese-style saw I bought. I broke a number of teeth on it, but in all fairness I would put the blame on my ham-fisted gorilla approach at the time, and lack of experience with hand saws. Since then I've learned to behave, and haven't lost a tooth since :-)

Western saws are more robust and more forgiving than Japanese saws, and if you treat a Japanese saw badly it will disappoint you, as the thin blades and small teeth are less forgiving. Still, once you get familiar with them, you will get very good results.

That LV saw is a good one to make mistakes with as you learn to handle them (it also applies to western saws BTW). And the price is good. But if you're looking at a good all-around saw, the Z-Saw (crosscut, 26 TPI, red label) is a better choice in my opinion (but it's a bit more expensive). The LV saw will test your patience somewhat if you're trying to cut dovetails with it (it is a crosscut saw, while cutting dovetails is a ripping operation), but the Z-Saw is actually not bad at that, just not as good as dedicated rip saws.

DC

Re: Ever bought a tool that makes you feel un-worthy?

#19

Re: Ever bought a tool that makes you feel un-wort

Denis Ch�nard, Orl�ans, Ont.

>My wife is indeed great, as long as there's food on the table and the bills are paid, she's cool :-)

I will get more pictures taken, but tomorrow (Saturday) I will be manning our association's booth at the Ottawa Wood Show, so it will in all probability take a couple days before I can post better pics...

DC

Re: Ever bought a tool that makes you feel un-worthy?

#20

Re: Ever bought a tool that makes you feel un-wort

Dean Lapinel

>Denis, I go nuts over finely crafted tools like your saws. I am having a vicarious thrill just from seeing your post.

I would love to hear more about them as you use them.

I have relatively well made Japanese saws that I use in violin making. These have made my life so much easier and pleasant. Even though these work well they are not "fine" handcrafted tools and a large part of my enjoyment in working wood is the tools.

May I ask where you bought them?

Re: Ever bought a tool that makes you feel un-worthy?

#21

Re: Great characterization Mike, and

Dave Burnard

>Aren't you the lucky one! Beautiful saws made by *the* master. What you have in those saws is treasure. The culmination of 5 generations of saw-makers, a craft that has all but vanished. Then again, he'd be disappointed if you didn't use them.

I can barely fathom how Yataiki can do the heat treatment of an incredible thin dozuki blade in a charcoal fire with a hand bellows and achieve such incredible control and uniformity. I watched him and then tried many times myself to repeat it on a thicker blank, much to his amusement.

Those teeth are fully hand cut too, and cut entirely after the blank is hardened (no rough shape filed or punched before hardening on a dozuki). Makes my eyes hurt just thinking about it.

It's typically harder to break the tops off teeth on a handmade saw - the teeth aren't impulse hardened like they are on replaceable blade saws so there isn't that steep gradient of hardness along the length of the tooth. Note that the body of a handmade saw is left harder than a replaceable blade is and so instead of putting a sharp kink in the saw body you're more likely to crack it. Fairly hard to do that with a backed saw like a dozuki, you see it more often in ryobas that weren't tempered enough or were really abused.

Wiley and Mike gave really good advise on technique, nice job guys.

Re: Ever bought a tool that makes you feel un-worthy?

#22

Re: Ever bought a tool that makes you feel un-wort

ThomD

>I don't think better saws are more fragile, they can be almost paper thin, but the "paper" is pretty darn tough, and it is cutting away less wood. I haven't used the quality you have though.

1) You need to have a good stroke, but if you look at a variety of Japanese masters on tape or in person, they don't all seem to move the same parts the same way. So some latitude is possible. Watch what moves and waht stays fixed. Work on a stacne that if you close your eyesand then open them a second or so later, still has you right over the line.

2) Practice with other saws. By practice I don't mean you use them for your next project rather than a router jig. I mean get some wood and practice some sawing. I don't know if you have any familiarity with strip canoes, but even though I had at the time in question 3 planers, and an abrasive planer in my shop, I routinely hand plane all the cedar for boats, it's some of the best wood, grain wise, guitars aside, that I come across, and I find it from home depot, to fencing suppliers. It's good exercise, and it's good practice.

When you are working on skills think driving range. You go to the range to work on your swing, you go to the course to play the game. As master archer Bob Ragsdale says, always decide whether you are practicing or shooting for a score. But in woodworking it often seems that few people really go to the "driving range", they try stuff out on stuff that maters like projects. Practice and using are not the same thing. For instance, it is amazing how many sports from x-country skiing to shooting use some form or eyes closed practice. You do the thing with the eyes closed, in a safe situation so you can actually feel your body, not let the eyes take over.

Some people will joke about Zen, but Zen for the Japanese was preparation for a warrior mindset, and the similar mental, practice,and hand eye techniques are used by top golfers, top army marksmanship training units, top darts player, whatever.

3) Warm up. I think the last pro grade load of woodworking I did was summer 06. I just haven't had the time to do large doses this year. Either way, if I haven't been doing it for a few days, particularly with sawing (all saws), if I am going todo something meaningful, I will warm up by ripping some lines in a board. What I want is for the saw to be square and just drop right down. If I am demonstrating I'm trying to burn off nerves, since I don't do that often. I'm also working on alignment. If I close my eye for a few moments, and re-open them is the saw still parallel in the cut, if not I adjust my feet. I do not use lines, the whole idea is to get the eyes, body, arm, and saw, just cutting straight and square.

If you have ever seen a raw beginner cyclist riding down the road he goes back and forth trying to keep balanced, in sawing terms he is still chasing the line. If you see a very experienced cyclist he probably thinks he was going straight, but they are just wobbling less, they are trying to steer a line, like a woodworker who tries to keep the saw on line by steering it. But some cyclists do train to be on line, either on rollers, or in my case when touring I ride the curbside white line because it rolls better. You are just falling down that line, you can't steer it, you have to align with it. You need to learn to let the saw follow the line. You can steer any saw. You pay big bucks for saws that can hold the line by themselves if you don't get in the way.

4) Aiming. it is called hand eye coordination, but what are you aiming for? Obviously you want the saw to go down the line (whether it is marked or not), but that isn't aiming. When you shoot a gun the bullet goes the same way, pretty much every time, it goes down the line, but how do you get that line on target?

Looking at the road right in front of a car is not how you aim it. You look down the road to where you want to car to be. You have to sort out where you want to put your primary focus, what point will your eyes rest on that governs your process. This gets complicated because you are both aiming and aiming the engine. In a car, you can just aim it, you aren't pedaling, same with a rifle. But with a saw, (bow or putter) you have several things happening, the saw is going places you want to saw to, but it is also going back and forth to effect the cut. What of all this stuff is your aiming point? If you don't have an aiming point you have to be extremely talented to achieve hand eye coordination.

For me, and there is variability here for sure, I acknowledge where the endpoint of the saw cut is, where I am headed. I sometimes look there if that seems to be the problem I need to deal with. But when I am doing high quality work, the line should be a given from the saw and the practice. What I look at is parallelism in blade and the kerf, in my secondary vision I see the target. If the saw is good, and the stroke is grooved, and I know where I am headed, all I need to do is keep a visual reference on the saw in the kerf keep it pumping parallel. It will keep dropping to the target, and I won't ever buckle it since I am watching the parallelism, and I won't saw off line on the back of the board.

Some minor notes:

If a person is new to Japanese saws they should learn where they cut, and at what angles of attack. You don't place them on the wood in the same relative position you would a push saw, because the starting teeth are at opposite ends of the saw. This affects the angles also. This affects workholding. Try to cut with the grain in your primary part, if you have to cut ageist the grain try to have that part of the cut in the waste. Both in crosscuts and rips. I mostly like a fairly light grip.

When it comes to practice, you can do lots, but even a relatively small amount, a few hours done properly, I mean once in your life, can make huge gains. Same with warming up. I do like a 5-10 cuts. If tiger woods was a woodworker he would do 2 hours of warm up, maybe. In many instances you will just be trying to see where the problem is. I have a dart board at the door of my shop. When I come in I throw a few darts. I don't play darts, but I can tell from a few shots whether I am on or off. There are days when I have thrown a 180, and days when I have missed the board... It really helps to know what is going on in the body. I consider myself someone who can manage their performance, not someone who is a deadeye with woodworking tools.

At some point your confidence and ability will come together to the point where this question no longer crosses your mind. And again, that could be a few days or weeks, not necessarily years.

Re: Ever bought a tool that makes you feel un-worthy?

#23

Re: Ever bought a tool that makes you feel un-wort *LINK*

Denis Ch�nard, Orl�ans, Ont.

>Hi Dean,

AFAIK Kayoko is the only source for them. Check the link below.

I would advise you act quickly if you intend to get anything from Kayoko and/or Yataiki...

DC

Off to the wood show, with no money to spend :-)


Yataiki at Misugi Designs

Re: Ever bought a tool that makes you feel un-worthy?

#24

See Dave Burnard's post just below.....

Wiley Horne

>That's the miracle.

Got camellia oil?

Wiley

Re: Ever bought a tool that makes you feel un-worthy?

#25

Re: See Dave Burnard's post just below.....

Denis Ch�nard, Orl�ans, Ont.

>I do have camelia oil, and the saws are actually coated with some I believe (would make sense). Are there different grades of that oil? Mine comes from Lie-Nielsen.

Thanks again, you helped steering me in going for these saws, and am very very grateful for this...

DC

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