WoodCentral Forums

Est. 1998 — 27 years of woodworking knowledge

Formaldehyde, hide glue and the resulting inlay...

Posts

Formaldehyde, hide glue and the resulting inlay...

#1

Formaldehyde, hide glue and the resulting inlay...

John Aniano, in NJ...

>Hello All,

Thanks to all who suggested how to find formaldehyde a few weeks ago. What follows is a story of the final result.

Here is an image image of the violin bow I just finished. It shows the part nearest the player's hand - called the "frog". I glued in two mastodon ivory rings in 13mm recesses drilled into the frog sides. Then, inside the rings are two 11mm wide five-pointed mother-of-pearl (MOP) stars on both sides of the frog. Around each of the stars are five 2mm diameter MOP dots and a final 3mm pearl dot at the center of each star. All were glued in place using scant amount of liquid fish glue. In the spaces between the ivory and pearl pieces, I put a mixture of liquid fish glue (from Kremer Pigments) and a black pigment called atramentum (also from Kremer). Atramentum was a traditional black used to make ink for quill pens. Atramentum is made from an iron compound reacted with oak tree bark. When mixed with fish glue, packed into the voids between the ivory ring and pearls and dried, it makes a nice black/gray color that blends well with the ebony. I filed down the excess dried mixture to make the surface flush to the curved sides of the frog. Finally, I put a small amount of formaldehyde in a baby-food jar, popped it into a small Rubbermaid plastic container and put the inlayed frog into the "fuming chamber", put on the lid and allowed the formaldehyde to do it's thing. Apparently, formaldehyde reacts with the polymer chains in the dried glue and makes them pretty much waterproof. This was my aim, to make an inlayed frog with the materials that were available to 19th-century European craftsmen. It has to be waterproof because the player's hands touch the surface of the frog.

For scale, the whole frog is ~45 mm long and is trimmed in Sterling silver.

John


img

Re: Formaldehyde, hide glue and the resulting inlay...

#2

Re: Formaldehyde, hide glue and the resulting inla

VLPARISIAN

>Let me be first on the board to say WOW. Very nice work. Very nice write up. How many hours from drawing to completion? or is this something you would rather not discuss?

Thanks

Victor in Houston

Re: Formaldehyde, hide glue and the resulting inlay...

#3

Awesome!

Paul in NJ

>Your craftsmanship always amazes me!

Paul

Re: Formaldehyde, hide glue and the resulting inlay...

#4

Awesome!

Michael Recchione

>

Re: Formaldehyde, hide glue and the resulting inlay...

#5

Re: Formaldehyde, hide glue and the resulting inla

Jim Shaver - Oakville, Ontario

>John,

You know how I have a deep respect for your bow's, I still remember seeing some of your work in 1999. Every time I see your work it gets better and better...I hope one day my daughter gets the chance to enjoy one of your bows. She's at a 3/4 violin now, so maybe in a few years when she gets to the full size we can explore these..

Awesome work,

Take care,

Jim

Re: Formaldehyde, hide glue and the resulting inlay...

#6

Re: Formaldehyde, hide glue and the resulting inla

John Aniano in NJ...

>Victor,

Normally, it takes me ~50 hours to make a bow - too long as far as I'm concerned. I've shaved some time off of some of the fussy stuff by using silver tubing for the button instead of bending sheet strips and soldering...

As for the inlayed frog, there were some extra time-consuming items I won't have to make again, like the two specialty spade bits I needed to cut the 13mm recess in the ebony and the ~11mm hole in the ivory to make the rings (I sawed out and filed the OD's). Also, the several hours to experiment and try different glue mixtures to see what would actually work as an appropriate filler material. All in all, maybe an extra 4 hours to do the two star inlays if I didn't have to make the drills and experimentation steps. Usually I simply do ~6.4mm diameter round pearl dots that I cut out from baby abalone shells.

I did cheat a bit and used already prepared 2mm MOP dots and oversized MOP stars. I did need to drill the 3mm hole in the stars' centers, but the stars themselves where quite close to finished size.

John

Re: Formaldehyde, hide glue and the resulting inlay...

#7

Re: hide glue and alum mixture...

John Aniano in NJ...

>Another point I should mention -

Some folks on this forum suggested I use alum to make hide glue waterproof, so I tried it. Well, alum mixed into real hot hide glue made the stuff VERY thick and did make it somewhat water resistant, but not water proof. When immersed in water, globs of dried alum-thickened hot hide glue became soft again. My "wet finger test" on the dried alum-thickened glue did suggest the stuff to be generally water resistant as well. So, I concluded alum helped make the glue somewhat waterproof, but not totally.

By contrast, the formaldehyde treatment made the hide and liquid fish glue much more waterproof than did the addition of alum.

Over and out,

John

Re: Formaldehyde, hide glue and the resulting inlay...

#8

VERY NICE!!!

Derek

>

Re: Formaldehyde, hide glue and the resulting inlay...

#9

Found the Recipe

Stephen Shepherd in the State of Deseret

>I know this is a little late, just got it off my old hard drive.

Another more complicated process for making hide glue waterproof is to mix one pint of formalin� (a mixture of formaldehyde and methanol) with nine pints of water with 8 ounces of borax dissolved and wipe it on one side of the glue joint. Then apply hide glue to the other surface and clamp and allow to dry as normal. Within 5 to 7 days the mixture of formalin and borax will actually tan (yes like leather is tanned) the hide glue rendering it totally waterproof. The solution can be stored in a close stoppered bottle for future use. This should only be used where future reversibility is not required.

Stephen

Re: Formaldehyde, hide glue and the resulting inlay...

#10

Re: Found the Recipe

John Aniano

>Stephen,

Thanks for the additional hide glue recipe! I'll add it to my notebook.

Any idea when/if you will publish your full set of historical woodworking methods and recipes - I thought you were considering such an endeavor...

John

Re: Formaldehyde, hide glue and the resulting inlay...

#11

Re: Found the Recipe

Stephen Shepherd in the State of Deseret

>John,

I have published Shepherds' Compleat Early Nineteenth Century Woodworker, am currently working on reprinting an 1824 Recipe book, over 800 pages and 6000 recipes. I am just finishing up my book on hide glue and I should have my web site up just after first of the year, and it will contain Alburnums Archive.

I have also just published the 1852 Catalogue of the Utah Territorial Library, interesting local publication that is selling quite well.

Stephen

👍 This page answered my questions

Your vote helps other woodworkers quickly find the answers and techniques that actually work in the shop.