plastic saw handles anyone?

In Praise of Plastic

patrick gibbons, houston, tx

>I'm a fan of American Modern styling. Thomas Hart Benton? Edward Hopper surrealism? Now to me, that's art. Hamilton eccentric watches and the Chrysler building are my cup of tea. The original use of plastic in woodworking tools put those tools at a premium price. The Disston D-95 and Millers Falls Buck Rogers tools come to mind. Greenlee's Hard Wear handles are another good example. I finally got myself a D-95 a couple of months ago and my verdict is yet to be made. I haven't sharpened and used it yet though just holding it in my hand seems to suggest that the hang and feel of the saw are quite nice. The plastic is knicked up but not broken and has survived as well as any 60 year old wooden handle. I love my Greenlee handles. They're actually much better shaped than any newly made chisel handle I've held. Every old wood handle I've gotten on older chisels have been rough from age, but the Greenlees are smooth and pleasant. These examples I've given have no seams. The plastic used was high quality and the design was well-thought out. I can compare the D-95 to a Craftsman and a Nicholson plastic saw handle I've used in the past. There's a big difference in quality. The Greenlees were sized to fit the chisel; not one size fits all. Plastic done right would be fine for me. Done right. That's the main consideration.

Patrick Gibbons

Plastic Town, TX

Re: plastic saw handles anyone?

Gary Karner

>Since I've learned to sharpen it properly I enjoy using my D-95 plastic handled Disston, don't seem to miss the wood that much. I have to admit tho that it is not nearly as aesthetically pleasing as my Wenzlaw, or

Tim Hoff, or my other wooden handled saws.

Also if ever given the chance to purchase a fine Nordic saw I will want it to have one of those beautiful wood handles also. (grin)

Ace

NO

Paul Kierstead

>So the question is, if it were offered, would you be open to purchasing a high end tool with a plastic handle?

I expect a high end tool, particularly a 'simple' tool like a handsaw, t have craftsmanship and beauty, period. If it doesn't, I don't buy it, regardless of functional value (I might buy a mid-low or low end version, though).

I think it would be a sad, boring world if every things value boiled down to its functional value. I don't care if plastic handles are actually "better", I still don't want one.

An argument for plastic

dave jeske

>I jumped on the forum today but I should be working! There are too many good threads to ignore. I think you COULD make a nice saw handle from a plastic but not injection molded. I would be more tempted to try a cast urethane or such. You can custom taylor the density and durometer (hardness) and have many color options including marbled (claro walnut anyone?) and swirl. I'm not sure I buy the sweat argument if the material was right. The hard part would be marketing it. The urethane handle could be an advantage over wood in many areas. You could even dual mold different hardness into the handle such as "soft grip inserts" into the grip area. So, do you market it as an up-scale version ABOVE the old, traditional, clunky, breakage-prone wood handled saw? Or you could market it as the GO-TO saw when serious work needs to be done. Save your precious, bubinga-handled, museum quality, heirloom for inspiration or special work, but use the rough and tough, ergonomic handled saw for the real, everyday work. You can never have to many saws. (or any hand tools!)

So, what would I buy? I would buy both! I love traditional tools with fine wood handles. I long for those times in the shop when the process is as important or more important than what I am even making. I pull out my cherished antique dovetail saws and molding planes and enjoy using them and feeling the old, worn wood in the hands. I pull out the new African blackwood handled panel saw (Mike W are you reading this?) and think about the craftsmanship that went into it. But most of the time my working involves needing to get something done in a relative hurry. I want a saw that cuts very well and feels good in the hand and one I am not afraid to lay down on the bench or floor or deck or wherever I am using it. For this, a high qulity, plastic handled saw may be a good thing. I do not think one exists however.

NUTH'N feels like a wood handle. NUTH'N.

steve mackay

>

Sure, why not...

Scott Burr in Ben Lomond CA

>Weight or balance can easily be adjusted. With the advancements in materials you can overmold different materials to achieve different feels and appearances not to mention colors and textures. You can even put your "medallion" in using in mold decoration.

There are drawbacks, as Dave Anderson said. The cost of a injection mold is costly here, not in China BTW. The biggest issue would be getting the slot for the saw blade in the handle. It can be done, Just add a slide in the tool. One would need to watch out for parting line flash, but that's a quality issue. Gee can you tell I design plastic parts & consumer goods for a livin'

Casting as said would be a interestion aproach also, but too slow of a process to be cost efficent.

Why not?

Michael Recchione

>I've got a couple of D-95s and a couple of Sandvik No. 280s from the 1950's - I use them all the time, don't even think about the fact that they're plastic. They're excellent saws. Some of my best chisels are plastic handled Berg butt chisels, probably about the same vintage - they take and hold an incredible edge. I never think about the handle when I use them.

As far as what I would do if the saw handles broke is concerned, it's easy - I'd make a new one, out of wood. :-)

- Mike

Re: Plastic

ThomD

>I have a push saw with a dreadful plastic handle on it, and Japanese teeth, that Lee Valley sold. Probably the best cutting western saw I have. I kick myself regularly for not buying more, balance is fine. This saw did get bought though because it was dirt cheap. I wouldn't have bought it for a premium price, even though it's performance turned out to be great.

I have two Tarant saws, and the handles feel great, they saw great, I like the brass back, the handles look wonderful. I think people tend to obsess on handles if the wood is crazy nice. Stupid, yes, but that's the fact of the mater. I have a new saw from LV from the Oregon guys. Don't love the handle yet, though it is pretty nice.

Before I switched production to plastic, I would ramp up the efficiency of my wood production. 3 axis CNC or router jigs. If you haven't ever seen Michael Fortune's video on making a mirror with a router, you need to do some homework. Or a duplicaver of home made origins. Or see if you can hook up with a jobber who has those capabilities.

If I was buying plastic I would have to have a reason. Is there anything that can be done in plastic that can't be done in wood. The average Orange plastic handle is designed for abuse, but plastic has some advantages. A huge range of products have crossed over to plastic, and in the process we have all heard the sales pitches. Exploiting some reason, other than that it would be cheaper to produce, would seem warranted.

Nobody has ever offered me a handle as nice as on the Tarant in plastic, so it is a little hard to guess the reaction.

I remember years ago when Iaccoco had pushed Chrysler to the point were their cars were reliable. I remember reading an article where the author discussed the fact that some Japanese sports car was being tuned to the point where the exhaust sounded exactly like some famous favorite exhaust. Everything about the car was refined to the point where it was not only perfectly reliable, but in addition every part was refined. This was when a lot of US cars would use the same ignition switch cover in ever car regardless of the market level. The point I guess is what is the market here. Is there a functional professional market, or is that not enough, does every product have to be as refined as the work it is designed to do, though probably never will.

Another story, famed inventor and archery manufacturer, Fred Bear, liked to insert a plastic bubble compass in the handle of his wooden bows. He complained that doing so was pretty expensive, and that all the thanks he got was that people complained that the compass made the whole bow seem cheap. Whatcha going to do.

Re: Plastic

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>I have my fair share of plastic handled saws, but they're all speciality saws like the Noblex mitre, HD hack saws, and one Japanese utility saw (this puppy cuts anything very quickly). I don't have any problems with these handles.

My furniture grade saws are all wood handled, no complaints there either, some wrapped in reed and/or rope.

So I guess it probably doesn't matter all that much.

Pam

Re: plastic

Moses Yoder in White Pigeon, MI

>Something about plastic turns me off. I think it is exactly because of the reasons you mention. It takes no skill to make. I know a machinist who makes molds for plastic and he is a highly skilled worker, what the younger generation would refer to as a dinosaur. But to just blow some plastic into a mold and call it a handle would be sad. Wood working for most people goes beyond efficiency into the esthetics of the tools we use. I don't even buy saws with the newer wooden handles on them because they are so ugly. I have a box full of saws because I liked the handle, generally made before 1920.

What a GREAT idea!

Derek Cohen (in Perth, Australia)

> the question is, if it were offered, would you be open to purchasing a high end tool with a plastic handle? Or would you just be turned off by it just because its plastic?

Adam

Great idea, but I don't think that you are taking the concept far enough.

Shocking Pink, Electric Blue... this may sound exciting but what about Leopard Skin, Zebra, and Cauliflower (for the vegetarians). Day-Glo lets you save electricity.

Now I am thinking slip covers for LN and Wenzloff saws. Cover that old fashioned wood. Something along the lines of a mobile phone cover. Hey ... Leather!!

What about a plastic slip cover with a woodgrain finish?! That wood (get it?) be clever. Don't like original Bubinga ... get the one of your heart's desire. Get a different one for each day of the week!

Saw holsters for belts - carry your dovetail saw around, at the ready for a quick bit of detail cutting. Pretend you are Bob Smalser.

The ideas are limitless.

Must go now ... Gotta take my medication... coming nurse ..

Regards from Perth

Derek

Re: plastic saw handles anyone?

Ernie Miller

>Adam? di you slip and hit you head yesterday? that is just not right. have you ever held plastic in you hand for any lemgth of time? and wores yet the rubber coated crap to make the grip better. Not only no but HELL NO! I don't want a plastic handle on any thing. I would rather hold a steel saw balde with out a handle than a plastic one.

Laser guide too!

HB

>if it's going to be in plastic, then a laser guide should be included to help you track the cut.....

Re: plastic saw handles anyone?

Adam Cherubini

>I'd like to thank everyone who responded to my question and I hope folks continue to respond and share their thoughts.

Frankly, I'm surprised to see so many minds open to plastic saw handles. Personally, I'm a wood bigot like my friend Paul.

That said, I'm not moved by the feel issues. Many of the high end tools I've seen have their wooden parts plastic coated (Hirsch chisels, Crown's saws, etc). So its hard for me to save my sweaty palms would know the difference.

I guess I see molded plastic as a way of recreating previously hand made tools inexpensively. Many of the plastics I'm thinking of can be post-machined, so you could mold in the really complex handle shape (or the throat geometry of a wooden plane) and leave the slit or screw holes for the machinist.

I'm thrilled to see such interest in traditional tools and techniques. And I'd like to see all with interest have the opportunity to use 18th c style tools. I'm not convinced that's the case today. I think woodworking remains an activity for the well-to do. If plastics can be used to bring quality tools to market affordably, we should do whatever we can to get behind it.

Adam

Re: plastic saw handles anyone?

Pedder

>sure I would buy a saw with a platic handle, if the price is low ans the blade is good. Right now, I'm buying old saws with broken handles ore handles from the 70's. I throw the handles away and make new ones, so it doesn't matter for me wich kind of stuff the handle is made from. ;o)

Re: What a GREAT idea!

Hank Knight

>Derek,

I want some of whatever you're smoking.

Hank

Re: plastic saw handles anyone?

ThomD

>I think part of the question is whether there is anything real going on here:

1 - are these saws for real use, or just toys for old boys.

2 - What differences would plastic bring to the market: it can be a lot stronger, a lot of the way wood handles are designed has to do with the strutural weakness of crossgrain; A lot of the handles out there are awful crap, but wood. What if the price of the elite saws dropped to the price of the nasty semi workable ones, and you had a handle that was really comfortable, and a blade that cut great. Right now there are these saws for about 130, and ones that aren't really good enough for about 65. Of course for any savings to be realized there would have to be some volume, I would guess.

funds

dave brown

>The money's out there, it's just going to the wrong places. Pull the computer labs out of the schools and replace them with wood or machine shops.

My kids don't learn anything on computers. They learn with their eyes and their hands. The learn by reading and doing. They don't learn anything on their computers in school that can't learn in a traditional way. What the computers are is wasted money.

I program for a living, so I have a love/hate relationship w/ computers and technology. I work on my pc all day. My pc entertains me but I don't learn on it. I learn by doing. What do you "do" on a computer but observe pixels appear and disappear?

Our kids are allowed to use the computer at home, but only for limited amounts of time. They are wholeheartedly encouraged to spend time w/ me in the woodshop or playing together. I tried turning of the tv and turning on the radio -- it's amazing how much children do on their own when they're not watching (being visually distracted by) something else.

I think hand tools and shop time will reappear in the schools -- in a few decades when the education system realizes how much it's screwing up.

my .02 (or .25)

cheers,

Dave

Plane Handles

David Charlesworth

>You may remember the polystyrene? handles on Stanley planes. Once the flashing was sanded down we went over the whole thing with wire wool and metal polish, creating a nice semi matt finish, which was surprisingly comfortable.

These were at least elliptical in section unlike the flat beech handles with the roundover which preceeded them.

Another thing that always bothered me; what is the difference between holding Varnish or french polish and plastic?

David

Re: plastic saw handles anyone?

paul womack

>I find that a bit annoying as cutting the teeth is the easiest part of making a hand saw. For me (lacking power tools) the single hardest and most complex part is making the handle. I spend hours on each handle.

Apparently, this is true for other saw makers, and its discouraging them from bringing new saws to the market.

I don't think I'm revealing secrets here; TLN told me that most visitors to the Maine factory are very surprised at the amount of hand work that goes into the handles of the LN saws.

Many people seem to be answering the wrong question here; they're answering "would you prefer a wood or plastic handle on a high-end saw", all things being equal? That's a somewhat trivial question.

The question I think Adam is asking is "if the use of plastic handles made took a (e.g.) LN DT saw from 125 bucks to 90 bucks, with no loss of function (including ergonomics) would more people be able to buy and use a good saw?

(or people be able to own MORE high quality saws)

BugBear

Re: plastic saw handles anyone?

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>Based on how people value plastic tools, whether handles only or not, the differential would have to be substantially more, say $125 vs $25.

Pam

Re: plastic saw handles anyone?

paul womack

>Based on how people value plastic tools, whether handles only or not, the differential would have to be substantially more, say $125 vs $25.

Even for the same high quality blade, sharpening and backing? I don't think so; for exmaple Estwing seem to do OK, and their hammers are available in both "natural" (leather) and plastic handles.

BugBear

I think so, even with everything else the same.

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>

Only slightly related analogy

Bill Houghton, sunny Sebastopol, CA

>I've been intrigued that Lee Valley, which seems to do its market research, offers both a traditional ryoba at $44.50 and a modern one with a plastic handle at $24.50. The catalog copy implies that the plastic-handled saw is more of a utility saw than the traditional one, so presumably there's some quality difference, but they can still move the plastic ones at 50% of the price - and, certainly, American (and maybe Canadian) users of Japanese tools tend to revere tradition

Factors: a) the reputation and continued market feedback that the saw was in fact a high-end saw, b) the quality of the handle and the related "hand" of the saw - how well it worked in practice - and c) how well the marketing effort could package it as an advance that brought quality tools to the modern market, overcoming the aversion to plastic.

I think the point at which it could succeed rests somewhere between Bugbear's and Pam's prices.

Sounds almost like a project for Rob.

Incoherent post

Bill Houghton, sunny Sebastopol, CA

>From my second paragraph on, the post was intended to refer to Adam's original question: could a high-quality saw with a plastic handle succeed in the market. Re-reading it, I realize the transition's not well-handled. So to speak.