Fore/scrub planes

Re: Fore/scrub planes

Marc in Luxembourg

>Pam,

I think there are as many opinions on fores and scrubs as there are stars on a clear night sky :-) I leave the LN scrub for the LN #6 on which I ground a heavier camber (corners 1,8mm higher than center). It works marvelously. Except Wiley no one ever confirmed or tried... I'm happy, so why bother?

Marc ;-)

Haven't seen the show yet, but

Stephen Shepherd in the State of Deseret

>It is fairly common to find old fore or jack planes with scrub blades. The blade is wider, the plane is longer and heavier and works much easier. Both double and single ironed.

I have owned an original 19th century European (horned, single iron) scrub and it had a much wider blade than modern scrubs, wood or metal. It is not as wide as the fore or jack.

Narrower works great for quick removal of stock and the wider for getting it flat. Many surfaces like drawer bottoms, backs and interior surfaces are finished after a scrub.

The finished surfaces are completed with a few strokes with a flat blade jack or smoother.

Stephen

Re: Fore/scrub planes

Wiley Horne

>Joseph Moxon in Mechanick Exercises (ca. 1700) describes only one roughing plane used by both joiners and house carpenters--the fore plane. Moxon says that 'It is called the Fore Plane because it is used before you come to work either with the Smooth Plane, or with the Joynter'. Moxon's illustration, lifted from an earlier French work, shows the fore plane to be a few inches shorter than the jointer. John Whelan, in 'The Wooden Plane', says that Richard Neve's 'Builder's Dictionary', 3rd Ed. (published 1736) lists the fore plane as being 18" in length.

As for the camber, perhaps our English brethren can assist with the thickness of groats and shillings. Moxon says as follows:

"But if you ask me how rank your Iron ought to be set? I answer, If your Wood be soft, and your stuff free and showy, that is, evenly temper'd all the way, you may set the Iron to take a shaving off the thickness of an old coined Shilling, but scarce thicker; whereas, if your Stuff be hard, or curling, or knotty, you shall scarce be able to take a shaving off the thickness of an old Groat."

Mark, do you mind showing some photos of your LN6 fore plane in action.

Thanks, Wiley

Re: Haven't seen the show yet, but

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>This fits with Follensbee's statement and plane, it's horned and he was using it to flatten rived oak. Pretty cool. Wonder how the C&W jack, which is very narrow with cambered blade, fits into this scheme, seems somehow in-between.

Pam

Re: Fore/scrub planes

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>A note may be necessary for those not from the US. Follensbee works at Plimouth Plantation on Cape Cod, using tools and methods used by the second British colony in America. So, I put out his statement as a point of interest for those who've always had a problem defining fore planes, like me. :)

Pam

No way :-)

Marc in Luxembourg

>Wiley,

First the camber:

Re: Fore/scrub planes

Marc in Luxembourg

>Not sure what action photos are, but here I scrub on the diagonal:

Re: Fore/scrub planes

Marc in Luxembourg

>At last some long strokes with a typical shaving. For this I adjust the depth of cut to a less thicker shaving. After the LN6 I pass to the #8 which has a more moderate camber and finish with a #7 which has a smoothing plane camber.

I hope I could help, but aren't sure I photographed what you expected :-)

Marc

Re: Fore/scrub planes

wilbur

>Very interesting excerpt. I always enjoy reading older descriptions of woodworking techniques.

But to paraphrase Bill Cosby's retelling of a conversation between Noah and God:

"Riiight. What's a Groat?"

:@)

Groat

Bill Houghton, Sebastopol, CA

>From Dictionary.com (drawing from Random House Unabridged Dictionary): "a silver coin of England, equal to four pennies, issued from 1279 to 1662."

I found it interesting that the test was not just a groat, but an OLD groat - presumably worn thinner?

The groat

Charles R. Smith from Victoria

>Wilbur,

A groat is one of those old English words like �bob�, �quid�, �farthing� or �sovereign� that describes money, or more specifically, a coin.

In the Middle Ages, the word �groat� referred to all thick silver coins. The English groats were copied from the Continental gros tournois, where the word �gros� (which means large) was pronounced rather like our word �grow�, which makes it easy to see how the word �groat� began. The first English groat was issued in 1279.

About 1560, during the Elizabethan era (i.e., the first not the second Queen Elizabeth), the coin�s weight was 32 grains. Because the groat was worth 4 pence (pennies), it was about this time that its name gradually changed from �groat� to �four pence�.

In 1836 a new groat was introduced, but it was thicker. Unfortunately, I have not been able to find accurate measurements of the thickness of any groat, new or old, so I cannot give you a measurement of how thick the shaving should be when �you shall scarce be able to take a shaving off the thickness of an old Groat�.

Of course, if the shaving was described as being the thickness of an old dime, we�d all know what that meant.

Charles (who prefers to use digital calipers to measure the thickness of shavings)

If it is groats...

Stephen Shepherd in the State of Deseret

>then it is crushed barley, wheat or oats. A groat is a thick silver coin, groats is cereal.

Stephen

Mmm, groats.

VTAndy4

>

A real project

jim reed @ tallahassee

>I worked on a plaque last night. It was rough walnut about 6" x 9". I used a LN scrub. Took me about two minutes to get it flat. I used little jabs at 45 degree angle. Finished up with a #7. The LN is perfect as a scrub because of its size and light weight. Anything bigger and I would have been huffing and puffing.

Re: A real project

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>Yeah, that's what I've said about my little horned scrub; but the C&W jack is narrow and light weight, too. Follensbee's plane was fairly short, so I'd bet it's also light weight.

Pam

Marc, thank you

Wiley Horne

>What I was hoping to see--and can partially in your photos--is the pattern on the work which is generated by the cambered blade.

I think most readers on this forum are familiar with using a cambered blade. But for any newcomers who aren't (and we were all newcomers at some point!), the power of the cambered blade in a flattening operation is just amazing.

In regard to roughsawn wood preparation, I can recall quite a bit of comment on the forums about scrub planes; a lesser amount about jack planes; and least of all about fore planes. Although Chris Schwarz in the past year has given the fore plane some prominence.

I use a Clark & Williams fore plane myself. 18". 2-1/4" blade width. Camber between 1/32" and 1/64". Fore planes will make you like thick shavings.

Pam mentioned that the fore plane is not that well-defined. I think that is right. It strikes me that there is a lot of room for variation in stock preparation planes, where what is important is the overall sequence. Each plane falls into an interval established defined by the plane used before and the plane used after. So jack planes are in a continuum between scrubs and fore planes, and fore planes are in a continuum between jack and try planes, and try planes ...etc etc.

Thanks again, Mark!

Wiley

Fore vs.scrub vs. jack

Bill Houghton, Sebastopol, CA

>In some other discussions, people have proposed using a jack plane for the same purposes for which a fore plane is proposed in this thread - if I understand it all correctly. Besides the obvious differences of slightly greater length and width, are there advantages to the (metal) fore plane vs. metal jack plane?

I'm now reconsidering giving my son my extra fore plane, if in fact a heavily cambered fore plane has some peculiar advantage.

Re: Marc, thank you

Marc in Luxembourg

>Wiley,

Indeed it's due to Chris Schwarz that I came to use my #6 as fore plane. I watched his dvd - Coarse, Medium, Fine - and was impressed by the relatively heavy camber on his jack plane. It got me thinking and I finally gave it a start and reground the blade of the #6. I wasn't disappointed - at all :-)

If you think locally and at confined periods, scrubs, fores and jointers are well-defined. Each trade had its own definitions. It's only afterwards and in a period where globalisation rules and people have the possibility to easily communicate when everything gets mixed IMHO.

My package for stock preparation includes the fore #6, then the #8 and finally the #7 which I use as a try plane. I can confirm that a sytem of how one works gives you reliability and repeatability.

Cheers,

Marc

p.s. at some point in the past I wanted to have a C&W plane. I have to admit they never answered my emails. How did you do to reach them?

Re: Fore/scrub planes

Greg Forster

>Pam:

"With Hammer in Hand" by Charles Hummel has some good photos and dimensions of 18th c fore(scrub)planes.

I have two 18th c planes set up with heavily cambered irons; much greater than most people are using nowdays. One plane is a converted jack and the other a "true" 18th c fore plane -about 2 1/4" plane body width and 12" length.Sorry, no pictures, all my books and tools are in WNY and I'm working in the Great State of Texas for the next year or two (and loving it)

Greg

Re: Marc, thank you

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>If it's clarity you want, and who wouldn't, Follensbee's your man. He says the plane he used was used before things got so confusing, before mass communication, as a fore plane; and it was with medium camber, 2" or so wide, about 10" long, and horned.

Wiley, Follensbee used only the single "fore" plane before the smoother, no scrub or jack. The smoother was very long. It all worked just fine on rived oak.

Pam

Re: A real project

Derek Cohen (in Perth, Australia)

>Horses for courses, Jim.

There are times when a Stanley #40 is perfect, others when I use the LV. And then there are times when only a retreaded #5 1/2 has enough weight and momentum to hog away at some of the hard Aussie timber. When you work really hard wood, heavy is good.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Clark & Williams contact info, etc *LINK*

Wiley Horne

>Marc,

Great point about the need to be specific to time period and location when discussing 'fore plane' (or anything else!).

Here is some current contact information for Clark & Williams. In my last computer crash (a few days ago), I lost Bill Clark's email, but the other info. given below is current. In the past couple of years, the extremely skilled and knowledgeable Don McConnell has joined the firm, and they are really cracking now. Hey, I got my hollows and rounds (left handed, too)! Contact any of the following:

Larry Williams

Email: lwllms@cox.net

Phone: (479)253-7416

Don McConnell

Email: DGMcConnell@cox.net

Bill Clark

Phone: (479)253-9523

A link to the website is given below.

Wiley


Clark & Williams (and Don McConnell, too!)

Yabbut

Wiley Horne

>What about grits?

Wiley.....No. Carolina native, presently away

Thank you Wiley!

Marc in Luxembourg

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