My new wagon vise

Wagon vise underside

Stephen Kirk in Quakertown PA

>Here's a shot of the underside.

Nifty!

Scott Burr in Ben Lomond CA

>I like the way the you did the install in such a thin top. Nice bit of engeering.

Re: Nomenclature

paul womack

>What makes this a "wagon vise" as opposed to any other travelllning dog end vise?

e.g.

BugBear

Re: Nomenclature

Michael Recchione

>They're synonymous aren't they? I had never heard the term "wagon vise" until Chris Schwarz started using it, but some Googling now turns it up all over the place. I didn't search long enough to find where the term came from initially.

Re: Nomenclature

Stephen Kirk in Quakertown PA

>I wouldn't really know. I just went on what Chris Schwarz called it.

Wagon Vise

Christopher Schwarz

>Paul,

It's called a "wagon vise" in the early 20th century "La Forge Royale" catalog. No explanation is given as to the origin of the word in the catalog, but the term is used throughout on several different kinds of benches offered by the French company.

This catalog was the first place I encountered both the term and the vise, so that's what I call it.

Sorry for the confusion.

Chris

Your impression?

Michael Recchione

>Since you chimed in, Chris, I'm curious to hear your impressions about the wagon vise. When I first saw it, I thought it was great - it was simpler than a tail vise, got around the sagging and support problems... I saw a relief carving bench that incorporated one and thought it was a great idea - in fact, I was going to build one like that.

Then I started having some doubts. I guess one of the advantages of the traditional tail vise is being able to hold boards upright by their sides, like for dovetailing. You can't do that with the wagon vise. Then I started asking myself what the advantage of this type of vise was over simple workarounds, like WonderDogs or planing stops or simple systems of wedges. I'd love to hear your impressions.

By the way, is your book on workbenches out yet?

Thanks,

- Mike

Impressed

Christopher Schwarz

>Michael,

I like the whatever vise quite a lot, even after a year of use and building several versions.

As to the advantages of the w. vise: It's simpler, more robust and doesn't have as much of a "no pounding" zone" as a tail vise. As to the nice function of the tail vise that clamps drawer sides for dovetailing, I think that's something that can be handled entirely by any face vise. So it's not critical to the function of the bench (inmy opinion).

The book, thank you for asking, should hit stores in three weeks. I'll have a special announcement about it on my blog by mid-October.

Chris

Re: Your impression?

Jim Toews - Walla Walla, WA

>I based the vices on my bench on the workbench plan in WoodSmith #50. I find that 99% of the time they meet all my needs, but the other 1% I wish I had access to the end of the vice block to hold things like drawers for planing. Given those numbers, and the fact that it was relatively easy to build and has absolutely no problem with sagging, I'd build it the same way again in a heart beat.

Cheers!

Jim

Re: Your impression?

Christopher Schwarz

>The Woodsmith design is excellent. On my latest (fifth! ouch!) version of a something-something vise, I snitched a couple of their ideas. It's worth getting your hands on.

Chris

Re: Impressed

Michael Recchione

>I'll watch for the book. I've delayed building my new bench until I can read it.*

I understand those advantages. But a WonderDog doesn't have any "no-pound zone" at all, and doesn't have a screw permanently sticking out of the end of the bench to interfere with sawing... Things like stops/battens and wedges also work and don't have "no-pound zones", but maybe one would say they're too much hassle to set up each time. Though it's hard to imagine less setup than planing against a stop. That's why I was wondering.

- Mike

*That's a lie. It is taking forever for the shop itself to be ready to move into. The electrical work is done, hopefully the rest of the work will be done within a month. So the book is coming just in time. Actually, with all the stuff I still need to do, I might not build a new bench for a year, and will just continue to use my old one until I can take care of some immediate stuff like cabinets, tables and the two things for the "real house" that my wife is threatening to just go out and get at IKEA if I don't get off the dime.

Re: Impressed

Christopher Schwarz

>Well the Wonder Dog is great, but if your stock is thinner than 5/8", you'll need to do some serious shimming to plane with the puppies.

I use battens and holdfasts a lot. And I work against planing stops a lot. But when working cross-grain (which I also do a lot), nothing is more convenient than pinching the work between dogs.

Chris

That's true

Michael Recchione

>I hadn't thought of the thickness issue - because my existing bench has a small quick-release face vise mounted as an end vise, using it for thin stock is pretty much out of the question, so I've always used schemes that involved carrier boards and stops consisting of things like screws (so I wouldn't have to screw into my benchtop). I would have thought the batten/holdfast and stop scheme would handle the cross-grain work pretty well. I've used it for that. But using the multi-named vise would be quicker.

Decisions, decisions...

Re: dogs

Moses Yoder in White Pigeon, MI

>I would say the tail vise on my bench is more useful than just about anything else in my shop. A tail vise or wagon vise, something with coarse threads that opens and closes quickly and has a row of dog holes for clamping stock, I think is an essential part of a work bench. I would say the average woodworker who builds a bench with no vise is going to live to regret it in about 3 days. I plan on building a new bench top this winter, I have maple cut from a tree at my in-laws place. The wagon vise (I think we will just call it that) would be easier and faster to build than the traditional tail vise. Plus the problems with sagging or a level top would be totally eliminated. Drawers can be planed by clamping a piece of scrap ply in the wagon vice extending over the edge of the bench. I think I might have talked myself into it. Plus whenever someone would look at my bench and say "What kind of vice is that?" I could launch the story.

Re: dogs

Michael Recchione

>It sure would be nice to be able to try it both ways for a while. I know that I used my end-vise arrangement less and less as time went on, relying more on stops and battens. But part of the reason for that is that the cheap face vise mounted as an end vise on my bench has real sag problems, so I had to use shims on top of the vise face to keep boards level on the benchtop. And the thickness of the shims depended on the length of the board since having the vise more open meant more sag, etc - the "sag function" was basically a sawtooth wave with a period of 6", the distance between dog-holes on the bench. It just got to be easier to clamp down a batten running parallel to the front of the bench with holdfasts, and using a wooden dog as a stop. This was especially true when I had to bear down on the board. The vise and dogs arrangement had a tendency to work loose under those circumstances because it was virtually impossible to compensate for the sag perfectly. A real pain. Of course, the wagon vise completely eliminates those problems.

In all the Roubo discussions of a while ago, one thing that I resonated to was leaving the right end of the bench free for sawing. This would basically eliminate the need for a separate saw bench for me, and given that the shop is moving to a one-car garage, space is at a premium. Then again, not having a saw-bench would take getting used to - I've really gotten accustomed to holding larger boards with my knee for both ripping and rough x-cutting, and sawing at that angle. It'll take relearning to do it at bench height.

I'm wondering if it would be practical to build the bench without an end vise to begin with, and then, if I really regretted it as you suggest, to add a wagon-vise after the fact. It looks entirely do-able based on the original post in this thread.

I guess I'll just wait for Chris's book. As I said, there's a lot to do before the new bench gets built...

Re: Wagon Vise

dave brown

>I like wagon vise better than "captive" or "enclosed" tail vise.

bench design *LINK*

dave brown

>I'm not sure if you've seen my bench or not but Chris responded well to my interpretation of the wagon vise. I used the parts from a tail vise that I had and integrated that into my bench top. It worked out well. Check it out at: http://picasaweb.google.com/ydb1md/NewWorkbench.


work bench pics

Very nice!

Michael Recchione

>

Re: bench design

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>Seems to me that there are two potential problems with a wagon vise (I, too, like the name, seems a very accurate description once I thought about it).

One is that whenever you have a slot/plate type arrangement there must be a sufficiently tight fit to capture the vise and sufficiently loose to let it run without much effort. This is not that easy to do.

Second, this means that there's some slop; and whenever it clamps something the forces will be on the front, upward and backward for the front and downward for the rear end. Over time, the slot will necessarily be opened up, thus providing more slop. And as that happens, the vise block will begin to wobble as its attachment points loosen up as a result of the forces of use.

Neither of these problems need be excessive or without solution. For example, what's the big deal with having to make a new vise block every few years or insert a thicker mounting plate (assuming the slot wear is even, which would be unusual)?

Pam

NO pound zone

Stephen Shepherd in the State of Deseret

>I do a lot of what would be considered pounding across all surfaces of my work bench.

So if there is a no pound zone that means there is a no work zone on my work bench and that is unacceptable.

I just filled one of the tool trays on benches in my shop (which I did not build), I intend to do the other shortly. As soon as I can sell these benches and make new ones that can be pounded on anywhere. The new benches will not have integral vices so pounding can be done everywhere.

Stephen

Size of "no pound zone"

Michael Recchione

>This doesn't have to be a big area of the bench, though. The slot only has to be as long as the distance between dog holes, doesn't it? So, if you make them 6" apart, your no-pound zone could be only about 6"long at the end of the bench. Now, if the dog holes are made in a separate strip that is itself a no-pound zone, that's a different story - that would be totally unacceptable for me.

I'm going to try an experiment once I'm moved into the new shop space. I'm going to remove the face vise that's doing duty as a tail vise at the right end of my bench and try working without an end vise for a while to see what it's like. If it turns out that I'm missing it all the time, as Moses suggested, I'll build a carriage vise on the new bench. If not, then I won't.

Stephen, just out of curiosity, how do you handle clamping stock for face work?

Re: Size of "no pound zone"

dave brown

>My wagon vise's sliding block is about 1-1/2" wide so I don't even think it qualifies as a "no pound zone."

It's off to once side of the bench and doesn't interfere w/ my working area. The bench dogs can be pulled out or recessed in the bench surface. A wagon vise "costs" much less than a tail vise -- in terms of unsupported area or "no pound" space.

Re: Size of "no pound zone"

Stephen Shepherd in the State of Deseret

>I use jamb cleats, pegs and holdfasts to hold work vertically to work on the face.

My regular bench does not have a permanent vice, I use a wooden pattern maker's vice to hold work on occassion. It has a wide front apron with holes and the front legs have holes for pegs and holdfasts.

I also have some wooden threaded devices that work in any hole in the bench to secure work upon the horizontal or vertical surfaces. I also use wedges and pegs to secure work.

I have what some would consider a 'limitation' because everything in my shop is pre-1857, but I have learned that there are plenty of traditional methods to secure ones work to ones bench.

Stephen

Re: Wagon Vise

Jim Boyett

>Here is a picture of a bench I build a few years ago.

I think I got the plans from Shop Notes magazine.

I also build drawers underneath it.

http://plansnow.com/dn3005c.html

Is this also a "Wagon Vise"?

It works well on mine but it is a little less versatile than a regular tail vise. You can't really clamp boards into it. It's limited to using it with dogs only.