When good dovetails go bad

A pic of the saw till *LINK*

Stephen Kirk in Quakertown PA

>Here is a link to the stye I was building. I used plans like this as a guide.


http://www.shavings.net/sawtill.html

Re: A pic of the saw till

slashdev

>Wow, I've never seen that before. I don't think it's a good idea to attach the top back to the sides with short grain DTs. You found out why the "hard way." The back could be tenoned into the sides, I suppose. It's more like a table apron tenoned into legs, not a drawer corner. Now if the sides were made of plywood, it would have worked. That's got it's own yucch factor though, eh?

HTH!

Re: When good dovetails go bad

MikeW

>Hi Stephen,

They do suck in that one has to be really careful. Helps to practice a bit on them so they go together first time with glue. As I use scraps for dinking around cutting joints, I often use a piece with long grain for the tails or pins.

The picture below was taken last year, I think. There was no ryme nor reason for the weird spacing. It was after the Klaus PopWood article on just sawing without layout. So I grabbed a board, whacked in some pins and did the tails off them. The chisel is an 1/8" one, so bigger/smaller isn't the issue. Mainly it's the fit.

I think the plan for the till would be better done even with dowels. I looked at that plan years ago and wondered why. The one I builts sometime back I basically did a frame and panel for the back. It was what I was use to.

If you stick with the plan, just cut a few joints to get it down before tackling the actual piece.

Take care, Mike

Re: A pic of the saw till

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>I agree, better to do M&T for the top section. Even if the pins don't break off, they'll never be strong, always prone to misbehave under load.

Pam

Re: When good dovetails go bad

Warren in Lancaster, PA

>I'm not sure I'm following your terminology right, but it sounds as though you made the pins on the side boards (cross grain) and the tails on the back. Both the drawing and Mike's example have just the opposite with pins in the back. Since the tails are usually much larger they are not so vulnerable to breaking.

Re: A pic of the saw till

Stephen Kirk in Quakertown, PA

>Well, you know I'll remember that from now on. Good thing I practice on myself and on shop projects. I'll likely pin the board together, or cut the openings that had the pins square and fill them and then maybe do a floating m&t. No need to scrap the whole project, there are lots of possible fixes. Besides, the dovetails I cut to attach the bottom came out pretty well. I was able to push the joint about halfway closed - I figured that was enough of a test to tell me it'll fit during assemble with some light mallet taps.

Re: When good dovetails go bad

patrick gibbons, Cut N Shoot, TX

>That plan has been around for a long time. It is a poorly conceived design. No need trying to fix a problem that is unfixable. Start over and do it right.

I agree

Adam Cherubini

>I'd be inclined to dt the slotted piece to the side, making it the top of a basic carcass. The back could then be let into rabbets and nailed or screwed on depending on how the till would be located (screwed or hung on a wall or placed on a bench top/supported from underneath.)

In my opinion, these are the sorts of problems folks get into when the try to use traditional joinery non-traditionally. I've never seen dts cut into long grain like this.

Adam

PS I don't think it would be a dumb idea to make an actual full depth top to help keep dust off the saws. In shops with power tools, I think it'd be prudent to add doors as well.

Re: I agree

Stephen Kirk in Quakertown PA

>Well, I'd almost need to start over to add doors or make the back the top. But, I think I can salvage the piece without too much extra work. If I ever make another one, now I know what not to do. I was even wondering as I cut those short grain tails - this doesn't seem right, but I'll give it a shot. Live and learn, I guess.

I don't think my saws will mind if there are a few nails holding part of the till together. I may still be able to connect the back to the sides with dowels, too. I'm getting good at finding ways to correct my mistakes without a trip to the lumberyard.

I think mistakes are a good thing. I can now really see the usefulness of using an M&T when you would have a short grain/long grain joint, while the DT is better when both pins and tails run with the long grain. Sure, I've read it, but it's not until you see why it fails that the point really hits home.

Should I mention I found this plan on Pop Wood's site?

Re: I agree

MikeW

>It's not that the top DT'd board is such a poor idea--just made me wonder why they complicated a simple design.

If you ever do this again...just make sure the cross board begins with a pin. That puts the first side-grained tail down from the top and is stronger.

Didn't know PopWood linked to the plan. But then, there aren't too many plans for a saw till floating around, either.

I too keep mistakes around for a while. And I prefer making them on shop accouterments. Keeps the mistakes on furniture low.

Take care, Mike

Re: I agree

Stephen Kirk in Quakertown PA

>I keep them around until I get cold. Even my biggest blunder can still put out some heat.

Ahhh yes, The infamous galoot till...

Scott Burr in Ben Lomond CA

>I made this till a few years ago. I orentated the pins as other have said to do, and I still broke 2-3 of them. Luckly mine sits on a cabinet. I would not want to hang this design on a wall supported only by the top board. It is a bad design to begin with. Much better done with mortice and tennons. There was a big discussion on Badger Pond. You may want to check the BP aritcles and reveiws.

Re: When good dovetails go bad

"RJ" Whelan

>Stephen .... others have said that this is a structurally unsound use of dovetails, and I agree.

But, in the interest of salvaging the project.....

I did this same thing once on a pair of bookcases - I knew it was wrong but I wanted the look of dovetails.

1. I sandwiched the board into which the tails were being cut (x-grain) between two scraps of the same material (about 1/4" thick), oriented so I was sawing and chiseling end grain on the scraps. The added support protected the x-grain tail during the cutting process.

2. The fitting was done very carefully as this is the point at which the tails are most likely to break off.

3A. When actually assembling the pins into the tails - clamp a fresh scrap to the outside face of tail board.

3B. Lightly chamfer the ends of the pins to ease assembly

4. If the pins are going to end up slightly proud of the tail board you'll have to removed the clamped on scrap to get the joint fully seated - be very careful at this point.

5. Be careful with the amount of glue used - if you go for a tight fit and use a bunch of glue you'll have one more thing working against you.

Best of luck .... rj

Re: I agree

Adam Cherubini

>I don't think that qualifies as a mistake, since you did what the plans recommended. The plans are at fault.

One of the one things I feel I've done right as a woodworker is "leverage synergy". I roll my eyes when I hear this in a conference room, but it sure has worked in my shop. What it means to me is always doing stuff the same or doing things that help me improve on other stuff. I always saw the same way for example. So rip sawing has helped my dovetailing.

I would have designed this project such that it reinforced basic carcass joinery by making it a dovetailed carcass with a nailed on back, let into rabbets, with dadoes in the sides for the box at the bottom and sliding dovetails holding that divider. That way you develop and hone your skills with nearly everything you make.

That's my 2 cents anyway

Adam

Certainly a good idea

Stephen Kirk in Quakertown PA

>I picked one method of cutting dovetails (Cosman's, actually) and I'm sticking with it. As I cut more, I'm getting faster and more accurate. I guess I could do the same with many processes. I'll continue to live, learn and improve.

Re: When good dovetails go bad

Stephen Kirk in Quakertown PA

>Well, my remedy is that I made good flat bottoms where the pin sockets were and then cut some wood to fill it. I left the half pins as a bit of support (they were pretty strong). Once that's all dry I'll cut some shallow (1/4") mortises into the sides. Then, I can use what used to be the tails (on the back), since I made one big tail and cut it into some tenons. If that seems at all weak, I might square off the ends of the side boards (they are rounded) and place a top board on.

All in all, one can have a surprising amount of fun with a mistake. Sure, it's starting to look like a Frankenstein's monster, but it'll always have a story to tell.

I'm kinda seeing the beauty of hanging saws on a hook on the wall, though!

There's a lesson in all of this

Patrick Gibbons, Needville, TX

>This saw til plan came from "galoots" who were among the original Neanderthals that walked the earth when the internet was nascent and hand tool knowledge was still more of a mystery than an art to me (and perhaps many others). But the thing was and is flawed. It's still floating out there in ethereal internet cyberspace. It still sings its siren's song luring surfers to their doom. Seems like there is a lot of wisdom out there that ain't so wise. Question everything, accept nothing at face value. Just because it's in black and white doesn't mean it is golden.

Re: There's a lesson in all of this

Michael Recchione

>Those were fun days. People were approaching woodworking without electricity as a cross between a religion and an archeological dig. I remember arguments about whether 6" was thick enough to make the top of a workbench and other silliness. But there was some real knowledge on that list, too. For example, I first got to read Don McConnell's posts there. It was hard to separate the wheat from the chaff, though, for a naive newbie like me. I own not one but two breast drills as a result. :-)

- Mike

Michael

Patrick Gibbons, Needville, TX

>I won't begin to tell you what I've run out and bought. And please, don't tell my wife either.

My white whale

Stephen Kirk in Quakertown, PA

>This thing is going to drive me crazy with making fixes, but now it's a mission. I'm going to finish it even if I ended bolting on steel plates to hold it together. I will not be beaten!

Re: Michael

Michael Recchione

>Oh, the two breast drills are just the tip of the iceberg for me, too. I'm building a new shop now, and one of the first orders of business is to pare down to what I really need so that I can avoid the paralyzing clutter that plagued my last shop. The longer-term objective is to replace the marginally performing trash heap rescues with a small, focused, well-working set of good tools. I'm finding it surprisingly difficult to actually get rid of stuff. But the first step is to put the stuff I don't really need into "storage", which for my family means the halfway house on the way to gone.

Tansu saw till

Wiley Horne--So. Calif.

>