Plane Orgy 2.0 - Final update! *LINK*

Re: Plane Orgy 2.0 - Final update!

Martin A inToronto

>Hi Dennis,

Do you work for or have any affiliation with Lee Valley? I am concerned that this is more of an advertisement. The Lee Valley forum, I mean the Canadian Woodworking forum, seems to already be overloaded with your pro LV posts. I am sorry to have to ask this. I would be interested to hear what you have to say.

Martin

Makes Sense To Me

Jim Shaver - Oakville, Ontario

>Hi Martin,

Well Denis's posts make sense to me, they are hosting the event in Ottawa and have a chance to put the LV facility on as a tour attraction...it would sort of be like going to Niagara and not seeing the Falls.

Take care,

Jim

Re: Plane Orgy 2.0 - Final update!

Rob Lee

>Hi Martin -

Denis has no affiliation with Lee Valley, Veritas, Algrove Publishing, or any other company controlled by Lee Valley Holdings Ltd.

He has received a royalty on a manufactured product though...

As far as this event goes - we are providing a tour as requested, loaning a few tools, and will be donating a modest prize...as we have done for so many other groups before.

Cheers -

Rob Lee

President

Lee Valley/Veritas

Pardon me?

Brad in Ottawa

>Martin,

Not sorry to ask but: who self appointed you to be the posting police?

I have met Denis several times. He is a friendly but opinionated guy who is passionate about woodworking. He also doesn't work for LV. (Neither do I.) There are a lot of people in Ottawa who work for other employers. There are also lots of people who organise events for woodworkers that don't work for LV.

Brad

Fair enough question - Disclosure

Denis Ch�nard, Orl�ans, Ont.

>I do not have any financial affiliation with LV other than having one of my inventions (that they refined) in their catalog, I get a royalty for that. The item is not related to planes, and has been on the market for about six months now. Other than that I did a little bit of translation for them last year. Every penny that I've received from LV has been earned. And while LV has lent me planes for the two plane orgies so far, I do not get to keep any, nor to I receive any other kind of retribution.

I met Rob Lee about three years ago, when I lent him my WC hat (he needed one for his trip to Asia, long story). Prior to that I had already spent thousands of dollars at LV (and spent many more thousands since). We've been in contact here and there, like a few times a year, no more than that.

Basically, I like their products (BTW "overloaded with your pro LV posts" is a little bit excessive, I don't post on CWW that often), and what I like most is the approach to customer care and service that is unequaled in the field. Add to that their innovations in tools, and it't not hard to have a high degree of respect for that company.

If you read the CWW post again, you will notice that there will be lots of plane brands present at the orgy, and I'm not favoring one brand over another. As for the LV visit, well, if I lived in Maine I would have arranged a LN visit...

The first plane orgy of two years ago stemmed from, following an e-mail exchange with Rob, his personal offer to me to borrow planes and give them a try. I asked then if it was OK to share the experience with our local association members, that resulted in the first plane orgy.

Fast forward two years. Our local WW association holds a meeting every month, after which we go for drinks at a local pub. There I was asked this past winter to organize another orgy, as those who were at the first one really enjoyed it, and many others couldn't make it at the first one and wanted to participate in one. So I approached LV, not the other way around, to see if it was possible to borrow planes once again and arrange a tour of their facilities, to which LV agreed. My hunch when I started planning the orgy was that lots of people would like to do a tour of LV, and this was confirmed overwhelmingly, as of all the attendees to the orgy, only those who had toured LV before are not coming to the tour (at last count 31 out of 37 attendees at the orgy want to take the tour).

This is the extent of my relationship with LV. Hope this answers your question...

DC

Re: Pardon me?

Denis Ch�nard, Orl�ans, Ont.

>Whadda ya mean, opinionated? :-)

DC

Re: Plane Orgy 2.0 - Final update!

Martin A inToronto

>Rob,

I must ask, if Denis is receiving royalties from you, would you not consider that to be an affiliation? I would recommend to other readers to review his past posts on this and other forums (particularly the CWW forum). The evidence speaks for itself. There is nothing wrong with advertisements when they are clearly marked as such. I am not saying that Denis is the only one to do this as there are a number of other people under the Lee Valley wing (they know who they are) behaving in a similar manner on this site and the CWW forums, (writing biased product reviews, pro-LV posts, etc.) some of whom have received free products and/or other favors in return for their reviews.

I come to this site to read the honest opinions of woodworking community members... not of those who are receiving royalties, gifts or money from Lee Valley.

Re: Pardon me?

Brad in Ottawa

>Let's face it, I couldn't exactly say you were handsome or sophisticated.

Brad (Ducking and running!!!)

Re: Plane Orgy 2.0 - Final update!

Brent in Montreal

>I'd like to chime in here about Denis's posts on CWW. Yes a few of his posts are concerning LV, but so are quite a few other posts on the board. In particular the Hand Tool forum often brings up LV and Veritas. This seems only normal since the company is a Canadian company that makes top line products. Also, given the fact that quite a few of the members there can walk into a LV to buy the products, or buy mail order, without the added expense of cross border shopping it seems only logical that the forum would field many questions on Lee Valley products. Consider some American forums and the amount of bandwidth that is used in discussions of Grizzly, Woodcraft and Harbour Freight products, and I think it puts the Denis's posts (and posts in general) on LV into perspective.

Full disclosure...I am the moderator of the CWW Forums.

Re: Plane Orgy 2.0 - Final update!

Rob Lee

>Well -

If that's your definition (and it ain't mine) .. then Ellis, Chris Scwarz, Mike W., Derek, Alf, and dozens of others are also directly affiliated....should they not post anything either???

I'm perfectly happy to let the Mods decide that...

Let's face it - we're one of the biggest companies in the industry - and frankly, the main catalog mailing (which always pumps up the "mention" count at this time of year) is newsworthy on a lot of boards...We directly and indirectly support many of the boards - and in many ways. What's the big deal??

You think that 400 views of a message the key to market dominance?? We have 100K emails going out in the next few days (subscriber only!), and will mail more than 1M catalogues this month....

I have to say that I do find it somewhat curious that "ethical concerns" like yours are usually voiced from behind anonymous email addresses....has happened before, and will undoubtedly happen again.

I always try to remember that I'm a guest in someone else's house here - it's not my job to decide who should do what, or when..

Cheers -

Rob

Opinionated??

Paul Kierstead

>Sheesh, Denis is not that opinionated. Well, I guess it is all relative :)

Sure Denis is a LV fanboy, but to suggest he is in someway a tool or shill for LV is just plain BS, rude and uninformed, plus some other things that shan't be said on the board.

Martin Check Your EMail Please, Thanks

Jim Shaver - Oakville, Ontario

>

Yawn...

Frank D. in Montreal

>

Request for followup

Wiley Horne--So. Calif.

>Denis,

Please post photos here on WoodCentral of this excellent event--more will be merrier! Many, many forum dwellers would love to be at this event, and cannot make it. Your photos, showing the people, the tools, and all the fun, will be most appreciated.

Wiley ..... on behalf of Ellis, WoodCentral, and this forum

Re: Plane Orgy 2.0 - Final update!

Martin A inToronto

>Rob,

"... Ellis, Chris Scwarz, Mike W., Alf, and dozens of others are also directly affiliated... should they not post anything either???"

All I can say is that I have every respect for Ellis' integrity and neutrality. As for the others, however...

"... we're one of the biggest companies in the industry..."

I don't see the relevance of mentioning this, all it is is bragging. After all, I don't think that you have anything to brag about as it was your father who started the company and got it most of the way to where it is today.

"We directly and indirectly support many of the boards - and in many ways. What's the big deal??"

And "What's the big deal??" you ask; you are picking out the major contributers from the various forums and recruiting them to do your advertising for you, discussing your ads as ordinary forum posts and product reviews. Does that answer your question?

"... "ethical concerns" like yours are usually voiced from behind anonymous email addresses..."

I'd also like to mention that my email address is not any more anonymous than many of the other forum contributers. I choose to use a Hotmail address to avoid spam.

Martin

Re: Plane Orgy 2.0 - Final update!

Martin A inToronto

>Brent,

In response to your post, looking at Canadian Woodworking (CWW) forums' "Hand Tools" section, Lee Valley has almost total dominance over it. At the top of the forum is a sticky post, written by Denis Ch�nard, probably stickied by you Brent (as I imagine that you are the only one authorized to put up stickies). Out of the 21 posts on the first page of the "Hand Tools" section, about half of the posts are Lee Valley-related, many written by the usual crowd of Lee Valley recruits.

I must admit, Brent, I am not the biggest fan of the CWW forums. Since you took over as moderator, you have been ruling the site with an iron fist, banning and suspending users for the smallest infractions. I know that many of the former forum members who were upset about this ended up starting their own woodworking forum - the (Canadian) Phoenix Wood Forum. The word "phoenix" just so happens to be automatically censored on your site along with the usual swear words. I happen to know that one forum member was suspended from your site for a month just for using the word "feenix". I am glad that this forum is not run in the same manner as yours is (ie. censoring and deleting posts at a whim). I have to say that one thing I have noticed while watching this forum, is the freedoms the members enjoy. Thanks to Ellis!

Martin

Re: Martin Check Your EMail Please, Thanks

Martin A inToronto

>Jim,

In answer to your email, asking me to call you, thanks for the offer, but I would rather keep things out here in the open. Discussions do not need to take place 'under the table'.

Martin

I second that request

Dave Anderson Chester, NH

>Denis, I will be deeply disappointed if we don't get a full blown account (with pix)of the Plane Orgy. If you choose, maybe you could delegate the duty to M'seur Sahver.

Dave, duckin' and running really fast. That Shaver guy is bigger than me.

Re: You don't have to run fast, Dave...

Rob Brophy...lost in Niagara

>....Jim's a goalie, they don't go anywhere fast. Just don't let him catch you in his crease.

Rob...who would dearly love to attend the plane orgy.

Re: Request for followup

Denis Ch�nard, Orl�ans, Ont.

>Thanks Wiley, I am organizing it so as to have lots of pictures. I will keep you and Ellis posted...

Take care,

DC

OT: When did M become a million? I believe

VLParisian

>M is roman numeral for thousand and MM was a million as in 5MM btu natural gas.

Just Curious,

Victor

Common usage these days

Dan Donaldson

>The use of M for millions is pretty common, at least here. Most all of the volume and cost info that I get as part of my job all use M for millions, both inside and outside info. ;-)

Re: Pardon me?

ThomD

>Well if this was the securities industry a royalty would certainly count for something. At the end of the day when all the disclosure is duly undertaken, what will actually change? Having heard Dennis gets a royalty, I am more impressed than ever, and having put on events, I know one reaches for whatever resources are out there.

I really don't think it hurts anything if people ask, or if people tell. Sunlight is not going to harm anything.

What do you do for a living, Victor?

Bruce, a MN Galoot

>The only other people I know who use MMBTU are in the gas business, and utilities, the people I work with.

Bruce