So what do you fancy in the LV cat.?

Re: So what do you fancy in the LV cat.?

Moses Yoder in White Pigeon, MI

>I saw those spoon bits too when I was checking out their website and thought it sure is nice to have people who actually think about woodworking making tools. Your catalog is probably about 6 months ahead of mine. I was just thinking last night that I should come up with some fantastic tool to win that $300 so I can buy the LV jointer plane.

Re: So what do you fancy in the LV cat.?

Stephen Shepherd in the State of Deseret

>Once again LV makes an old tool that looks modern. What are they thinking? That square shoulder looks silly.

They could have reproduced a spoon bit that looks like an old bit but they didn't. How much harder would it have been?

I would have happily bought a set of those and recommended them to others but because of the odd design I will not.

Stephen

Re: So what do you fancy in the LV cat.?

MikeW

>Well instead of the $15 LV spoon bit, you can always feel free to recommend the Cilco $35 spoon bit. They are pretty much identical to my vintage ones.

The Cilco even look like all those worn out vintage ones I have as "spares" that it took to build a good usable set.

Take care, Mike

Old style

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>Mike, :)

Stephen, are your objections purely aesthetic? Or do you expect the square shoulders will cause some sort of problem?

Pam

Not fond of those either.

Stephen Shepherd in the State of Deseret

>They almost got it right but have you ever seen an old spoon bit with that square shoulder? Most of them make a smooth transition from the spoon to the shank. A function of the blacksmiths swedge block and fullering the spoon. Clifton has that square shoulder too. I guess that is the reason I haven't bought any of those either.

I would even pay more for the proper shape. Fortunately for me I have a blacksmith available, so he can make what I need. My original spoon, gouge and nose bits are all on the smaller size and not a single square shoulder.

Reproduction traditional handtools are difficult to find anyway, why don't the new makers just reproduce the old styles instead of the 'white man syndrom' that they can make it better. I don't wan't it better I want it the same! It is a shame, what a waste.

Stephen

Re: Old style

Stephen Shepherd in the State of Deseret

>Pam,

I don't think the square shoulder would cause a problem as I doubt the holes are ever drilled that deep. It might make removal difficult if you drill a deep hole, I don't know.

So it is pretty much aesthetic and traditional. Old style new tools are not that easy to find, so when some promising 'new' pieces come around I am always interested and frequently dissappointed.

Stephen

Re: Not fond of those either.

MikeW

>The LV ones don't look to me the square shoulder *termination* would prevent deeper drilling. In fact, I'm pretty certain from the pictures.

As you mention...it really doesn't really affect you, except in the strong traditional bent sense. So it's a moot argument it seems to me.

While I agree in principle as regards older tools, even those evolved into shapes and styles over time. There are tools so changed in appearance (say the chamfers on molding planes) that by the time they reach your working period, they are dumbed down in order to speed production. So the exact same argument could be made from a *real* person from the 1850s concerning the then current state of tools.

For myself, I am glad LV has brought a more affordable spoon bit to market--assuming they work well. Hopefully nose bits will follow--regardless of their choice of termination at the shank.

Take care, Mike "the pita" Wenzloff

Re: Not fond of those either.

Stephen Shepherd in the State of Deseret

>Mike,

Well, I hope they get the nose bits right, would be a shame to mess up on those fine bits. If they just take a little more effort they could sell more tools.

I am not alone in this area of pursuit of absolutely authentic reproductions, in both tools and the things those tools produce. I know of several others that have made the same complaints.

Stephen, also a charter member of PITA

Well -

Rob Lee

>.. we'll make 'em with triangular shanks if that's what it takes...

Sheesh - it's pretty much charity work to start with - they all have to be hand sharpened too... five forging dies, a 20 year supply as an initial order, and at least two years to get to get them to the point where they'll work with breaking...

And you want them to just LOOK DIFFERENT????? :)

Cheers -

Rob

Ha! I am buying em anyway!

Paul Kierstead

>I have discovered the joys of using a brace, and look forward to having them!

Re: Old style

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>I've got a couple of very, very old Japanese versions, 6 mm and 9 mm, that don't taper at all, their shanks continue from bit to brace at the same sizes. Of course, there are a couple of wooden custom built braces to accommodate their sizing. I don't find this stupid or objectionable or worthy of copying, it just is. I love having a small brace that's always ready to go.

But I wouldn't advocate that a manufacturer take this approach today. I love the looks of Rob's spoon bits, square shoulder and all; but can see the attraction of a tapered shoulder. So what? Rob is always taking hits on aesthetic design, witness the shoulder planes (See a connection here? Maybe Rob likes his women with big square, padded shoulders?), so it's unlikely this will phase him; but geesh, lighten up.

Pam

Why Not?

Stephen Shepherd in the State of Deseret

>Rob,

Nothing personal, I do buy stuff from you fairly regularly, you offer some great stuff. Nice reproduction hardware is excellent.

This however could increase sales if, yes they just LOOKED DIFFERENT.

I know that it is charity but I am sure it would be possible to make 'exact' reproductions which could be of more use to living history museums around the World.

I work in a living history museum and would have bought a couple of sets if they were correct because we can use them and it is cheaper than having our blacksmith make them.

And while it is a good attempt, better price than the others (not any difference, not historic) and many will buy, use and love those spoon bits. With a little more design work and tapping into already existing examples (no need to re-invent the wheel), appropriate historically correct examples would be just as easy to reproduce rather than just making one that looks 'kind of like' and is 'almost as good' or 'even better(?)' than the original.

I hope you take this into consideration when making the nose bits, if they look good I want the first set.

I have the honor to remain,

Most respectfully, &c.,

Stephen

I can't lighten up

Stephen Shepherd in the State of Deseret

>Pam,

I do this for a living, so it is personal. I specialize in 19th century woodworking and it would be very convenient to have traditional styled tools available to use.

What difference would it make to you if the bits looked traditional rather than how they look? No difference. You don't care. I do!

There a lot of people out there who want traditional styled tools and in this case they will have to settle for what is available rather than having properly styled historic reproduction tools.

I don't see what the problem is, a few subtle changes and the tools would be perfect, instead we must 'settle' for something else. Like the cast iron holdfast. While they work, they look awful, modern mans idea of what the past looked like rather than looking to examples of the past to see exactly what they looked like.

Stephen

Re: I can't lighten up

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>There's a big difference between traditionally styled tools and traditionally copied tools. It's only a problem for me when the new old tools don't work as well as the old old tools; but then I'm not a pedantic copier of the old ways, particularly given that I'd be having my 20th kid at 60 as I washed shirts by hand down in the creek and picked onions for our salad (actually, this part wouldn't be bad at all). Perhaps Rob has made a real breakthrough functionally, but you will never know.

Pam

Re: I can't lighten up

Stephen Shepherd in the State of Deseret

>You wrote:

There's a big difference between traditionally styled tools and traditionally copied tools.

What is the difference? Now which one do I like?

Perhaps Rob has made a real breakthrough functionally, but you will never know.

Breakthrough? Improving on a design that is centuries old? These are spoon bits, what kind of breakthrough do you expect?

Stephen

Re: Why Not?

Rob Lee

>Hi Stephen -

No worries here.... :)

We focused on making these work - and not on copying an historical pattern. Not sure that there was (or wasn't!) a reason for square vs round shoulders...

I can infer that a square shoulder in the forging die would make it easier to register a blank - but I don't know that for sure....

Cheers -

Rob

Re: I can't lighten up

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>Traditionally styled tools are those that behave more or less like old tools, they allow each of us to use old techniques when it makes sense for ourselves. They can be improved for function and/or aesthetics.

Traditionally copied tools are just that, precise copies of old tools which may be useful for those of us trying to repair old tools, no deviation from what old tools look like and act like, even if there is a better performing option.

Which do you like? You obviously like traditionally copied tools. What breakthroughs? Well, Rob's are cheaper, so perhaps he has introduced manufacturing processes that are cheaper because of the square shoulders. Perhaps he has incorporated his ultraflat sharpening machines in their manufacture which allows the tools to cut more easily. Perhaps the black steel is more rust resistant. Et cetera.

Pam

I almost let this post pass...

Stephen Shepherd in the State of Deseret

>Pam,

You wrote:

Traditionally copied tools are just that, precise copies of old tools which may be useful for those of us trying to repair old tools, no deviation from what old tools look like and act like, even if there is a better performing option.

Even if there are better performing options? Lasers and plasma cutters are a better option, but this is a traditional hand tool question.

If 'reproductions' are going to be made for people who want traditional tools why not make decent copies?

There are thousands of reenactors from a variety of orginizations that would like quality reproductions that don't need to be fettled with before they are useable.

FAR Be it from me to say what is right historically. This term FARB is used among people in history to describe historical inaccuracies. To de-farb something is to take a tool, object, etc., that is almost right and make it exactly right.

In that vein, I will order one of those bits and see if a while at the grind stone will make it acceptable.

Stephen

Re: old tools

Moses Yoder in White Pigeon, MI

>Technically the new tool has the same function as the old tool. Personally I think it is great that LV is not trying to copy old tools but instead develops their own style. I think it would be very interesting as an historic woodworker to use modern hand tools to do things and have the old tools in a display case. I think this would to a certain extent serve a higher purpose because it would show people what they can do, instead of just showing people what was done a hundred years ago. The other thing I had to think about is a tool that is only a few hundred years old is not that old. If it's a few thousand years old maybe that is old. I don't really expect a response to this as I know it is way off the track of what you are aiming to do, I'm just thinking out loud. Their is a great value in learning and teaching a skill. Much of skill is being lost to machines. I showed off the frame I had carved this weekend, and the first question was whether I had done that with a dremel tool. Not that there's anything wrong with electric tools, it just reveals a lot about our culture.

Re: I almost let this post pass...

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>Probably like you, I use hand powered tools for so much of my woodworking. But I never thought of these new tools as reproductions. This could be the source of our slightly different views.

Great idea to grind the shoulder, should be a lot cheaper than custom made. I look forward to hearing the results.

Pam

Spoon bit is on back order.

Stephen Shepherd in the State of Deseret

>

Re: So what do you fancy in the LV cat.?

VLParisian

>To get my point of reference, keep in mind that SWMBO and I went antiqueing this past weekend in the Texas Hill Country. In Castroville I spied a couple of ratty old transitional planes stashed down low under the counter. I proceeded to fondle and inspect the planes and while doing so explained to the shop owner and SWMBO how they came to be called transitionals.

Now today I receive the Lee Valley Catalog and flipping through it I briefly stopped on page 35 and I had a mild panic attack... take a look and see if you see what I thought I saw.

Maybe someone will be kind enough to scan the picture and post it for those who are catalog challenged.

Regards,

Victor - in Hot and Humid Houston

Re: So what do you fancy in the LV cat.?

Jim Shaver - Oakville, Ontario

>I keep coming back to that plough plane......I am wondering if they will be making their own version of a Stanley 55 down the road...Hmmmmm

:-)

take care,

Jim

Re: So what do you fancy in the LV cat.?

paul womack

>Even if you're trying to be authentic, surely a modern looking tool still make an "authentic" cut ?

And if the modern design of (e.g.) s shoulder plane improves the ergonomics, it's still a shoulder plane.

Only if one were doing interpretation/demonstration for a viewing audience, and claiming to be exactly representative in all aspects (e.g. Williamsburg) does the styling of the tool become important.

BugBear