Finding formaldehyde for waterproof hide glue

Weldwood from ace hardware

Jim in Burlington On

>Does Ace not sell Weldwood in the powder form anymore?

Wish to create a 19th century waterproof putty...

John Aniano - in NJ...

>Jim, et. al.,

Yes, I know there are a number of modern waterproof glues out there. I know I could use any of these such as epoxy, CA, Titebond III, etc. but I'm trying to find a good waterproof glue to form a quick setting paste/putty that might have been used during the 19th century. I've found and tried the so-called waterproof recipe where one adds ~1/8 part of boiled linseed oil to a hide glue and water mix and it IS very water resistant in my opinion, but not waterproof. Made up as a paste for a filler, it feels moist to the touch when dry/cured.

I have a number of old references that give recipes for waterproof glues, but I want to try the formaldehyde/hide glue concept as it to my mind both elegant and could certainly could have been used in the mid- to late 19th century.

I have tried some simple linseed oil putty recipes but the stuff takes forever to harden - great for affixing glass to window frames, but not for inlaying mother-of-pearl designs in the sides of violin bows, my desired end use. The hide glue and pigment pastes I've made up dry within a day or so and are quite hard when dry, but, as I said, they are hygroscopic. Any ideas on good rapidly curing hide glue- or linseed oil-based or similar putty? Anything that hardens in less than a few days would be appropriate.

Over and out,

John

Re: Wish to create a 19th century waterproof putty

Steve Hamlin

>John, Formalin (37% formaldehyde in water) is nasty stuff - drinking 30ml (6 teaspoons) of water won't kill you, splashing water in your eye won't blind you, inhaling water spray won't kill you, exposure to water vapour won't give you nasal cancer....

As of next month, European embalmers are barred from using it.

That aside, have you tried farm chemical suppliers?

Cheers

Steve

Re: Finding formaldehyde for waterproof hide glue

Stephen Shepherd in the State of Deseret

>If you can not find formaldehyde you can smoke the hide glue like the Native Americans did by hanging the object in wood smoke.

Or you might try skim milk to mix up the glue instead of water or add dried skim milk to the liquid hide glue. Also you can add alum to the hide glue to make it waterproof. This mixture will dry and harden in the glue pot, then you will need to burn it out as it will not be solved by water once it is dry. Clean out your glue pot immediately.

Also you can add isinglass to the glue to make it more water proof.

Stephen

Funeral Home

David Miller from Iowa

>As Steve indicated, this is a key ingredient of embalming fluid. I once wrote a paper on the irony that dumping a gallon of formaldehyde on the ground is a "reportable incident", but you can pump a body full of it and bury it anywhere the local health department says is OK with no problem.

Re: Finding formaldehyde for waterproof hide glue

George Makowski

>John, It is my impression that XIX c. woodworkers did not generally use waterproof glues. As Steve says in this thread, there are good period recipes around that produce what may be appropriate for what you want. For all that, hide glue was the most common adhesive for wood and it couldn't stand moisture or heat. Applications that needed to resist moisture had to use other means of fastening, mechanical means that is joinery, nails, screws. This is the case in boat building, the ultimate wet environment. For example, elements that were "waterproofed" after they were fastened might be treated with oils, tars, paints and their joints assured by caulking them with fiber paid over with lead oxide mixed with linseed oil.

Specialty interior applications, like the inlay you mention might be filled with a mastic after being glued down or even set in a mastic to begin with. Still, I don't believe they would be waterproof in our sense.

There may be advantages to using hide glue to consider that might outweigh those of being waterproof.

Good gluing,

George in AL

Re: Finding formaldehyde for waterproof hide glue

John Aniano

>George,

Yes, a mastic IS the material that is most often mentioned when talking about this type of inlay work. People mention "mastic" but rarely have an idea what it actually is. A resin/wax encaustic "paint" would also work, but there is the need to subject everything to heat, something I'd rather not do since it would loosen the other parts made of sterling silver, etc.

Do you have a suggestion as to a mastic material/putty recipe I might try? It needs to be black in color. Do these "mastics" actually have mastic gum as an ingredient? Too bad that lead oxides are out of the question for my application. Might have very well been an ingredient of the original putty in this application. Let's see - linseed oil, white lead and black pigment would probably do the job nicely. It would dry relatively quickly due to the lead oxide, the linseed oil would render it at least water resistant and the color would be, well, black. Any suggestions as to a similar but non-lead containing recipe?

Thanks,

John

Consider using...

Stephen Shepherd in the State of Deseret

>a thermoplastic adhesive if heat can be applied. Shellac is excellent as is gum mastic or burgandy pitch.

If heat can not be applied then both gum mastic and burgandy pitch can be solved with a bit of turpentine and applied cold. Shellac can be prepared with a little alcohol to make it into a sticky adhesive/filler and used cold.

Pigment can be added to the 'mastic' an early term for this type of filler/adhesive.

Stephen

Re: Finding formaldehyde for waterproof hide glue

"RJ" Whelan

>John ... apparently formaldehyde has been classifed a hazardous material and the cost of shipping is quite high. Pharmacies used to carry it (not sure what the use was).

You might try the biology department of your local colleges - not sure if the still preserve disection samples in it or not.

The following link will take you to a bulk chemical supplier - the smallest quantity they have is 4 liters:

http://www.galladechem.com/?gclid=CLzE-dbjmI4CFQyPYAod6m25Rw

Good luck ... rj

This is my local supplier

Stephen Shepherd in the State of Deseret

>I don't know what the shipping restrictions are, I just go pick the stuff up. A lot of stuff is no longer available because of its association with the drug trade. Try buying glass tubing!

Stephen

www.hvchemical.com

Re: Finding formaldehyde for waterproof hide glue

George Makowski

>John, Sorry for the delay in answering. I see below that Steve has given some formulas for mastics, which is more than I could do without some reasearch. I was using the term generically.

The lead oxide based compunds used in boat work would not work for what you want because they would not ever be hard.

I guess that what I wanted to say earlier was that XIX c. technologies had their limits as all others do. One of those limits was the lack of really reliable waterproof adhesives and therefore glued work had to be assumed to be sensitive to water (and heat). Violin work, always kept isolated from those two influences, could be mostly glued.

Maybe some of the more knowledgeable hide glue folks could weigh in here. My father, trained before modern adhesives were common, simply assumed that glue would fail over time if it was flexed too much, wet, or too long in a very dry environment. I think of those exceptions whenever I grab for the Tightbond II or III and realize that I do not need consider them.

Good gluing,

George in AL