Saw makers today

Wadda about Vlad?

Scott Burr in Ben Lomond, CA

>Is he making saw anymore? I sem to remember that he got out of the biz...

Bummer, if he did, the only guy who would make a handle to your specifications. I'm not sure about you grading system, A custom made saw like Mikes shouldn't be where it is. That's a stand alone area of expertise IMHO.

Agree with Scott about Mike

Wiley Horne--So. Calif.

>You have him in excellent company, but Mike is in his own league in making custom saws.

As an aside, it's sad to see the great name of Spear and Jackson where it is.

Wiley

Re: Agree with Scott about Mike

Peter Evans in Sydney

>Fellas, the classification is just my view. Whilst I am confident that Mike is the leader (the only one on the list I intend to buy from - not actually lacking in good saws), I have not to date put my paws on one of his saws, and really I was looking for only a three level quality classification. The articel will include more detail about the quality and range of Mike's saws of course. If anyone in Sydney has a Wenzloff saw I could try, well ...

Vlad on his website indicates he no longer makes saws.

Question: anyone other makers, Mike cannot think of any?

Cheers, Peter

Contemporary Western Saw makers

Ian (in Sydney, Australia)

>Peter,

I think you really have two distinct groupings:

There's the custom makers like Mike Wenzloff and then there's the manufacturers.

I'd rate Lie Nielsen and Thomas Flinn (Pax) as manufacturers -- you purchase a saw from stock.

I'm not sure on this definition whether Adria and Grammercy are makers or manufacturers. If the saws are held in stock, then they are manufacturers, if there's some weeks wait then they are custom makers.

A custom maker shouldn't (can't?) be ascribed to a "quality" grouping because you should get precisely what you ask for in the saw they make for you.

a custom maker should be able to make you a saw tailored to a specific task i.e. a rip saw for cutting Jarrah should be different to one tailored to cutting a close grained soft wood

However, manufacturers can and, in my opinion, should be grouped.

Re: Saw makers today

Marv

>Peter,

Lynx is a saw maker of today. Try googling it.

Spear and Jackson is probably the oldest saw manufacturer in the world. Dates back about 230 years.

Also, have you checked with Leif Hanson of Norsewood to make sure he is still making Tenon and dovetail saws? He does do some very fine work, all by hand.

Not sure if he made or makes regular handsaws.

Marv

Re: Saw makers today

Steve Hamlin

>Lynx is a Tho.Flinn/Garlick saw range (along with Pax, Greaves and Lane)

MikeW makes the Kenyon reproduction saws (stocked items at TBT) as well as bespoke saws. Have heard tell he is developing a line for another stockist too. Would agree that both his bespoke saws and Kenyon saws are in a different league.

Cheers

Steve

Ed Paik i n Oakville

Jim Shaver - Oakville, Ontario

>Well There is a very successful saw maker in Oakville Ont.

His name is Ed Paik.

Ed is a memeber of our Halton Furniture Makers Society. He has been making saws now for a short while and by all accounts his dove tail saw is one to desire. I was teaching at LV last weekend and earlier during the same week Ed was taking a class on cutting dt's. The seminar coordinator said that Ed's saws were the best he had ever seen! There are also a fair amount of Canadian forum members here who own his saws and have posted similar comments to quality and over all experience.

I can also sat that Ed has a pesonal quality much like many of the successful fine tool makers, he is a very sincere and kind person, a lot like Konrad, Mike W and David Jeske. I don't know if Ed has a web site yet, but I have an email for him and he promises me that he'll be over to my shop after my surgery-recovery to let me test drive a few.

I think Denis C. might have one of his saws.....any one else who can support their experiences with one of Ed's saws???

Take care,

Jim

Re: Ed Paik i n Oakville

Denis Ch�nard, Orl�ans, Ont.

>I don't own any of Ed's saws... Yet... :-)

But many of our local association members bought one after getting the opportunity to test-drive Ed's DT saw at an association meeting earlier this year.

Ed will be attending the Plane Orgy on Sep. 8, where he will have his current saws and prototypes for the crowd to try. Should be very interesting, my wallet is already in "it's gonna hurt" mode :-)

DC

Re: Ed Paik i n Oakville

Rick in Oakville

>I think that Ed Paik is already on the list - he now marks his saws Medallion Toolworks. I have one of his dovetail saws and can confirm that they are a very well made tool that does a terrific job. They are also beautiful.

Re: Saw makers today

Paul Kierstead

>As a matter of interest, how many of those make more then a few small/medium sized back saws?

You would think the only use for a saw is cutting dovetails and the odd tenon by the way the market goes.

Everyone's sawing needs are different

VTAndy4

>... which is why it would be hard to agree on a classification to meet everyone's standards. For instance, while I like the fact that Mike is running a small, artisanal family shop compared to a factory, for me (for instance) the test of actually cutting dovetails with saws is more important. I had a chance to try out a LN dovetail saw, one from Mike, and one from Gramercy back-to-back and they are all pretty close (of course, I'm no expert). For some people, the availability of a kit might be more important than other factors (Mike and Gramercy take the lead there). For others, Mike's customization options might be the most important factor, or the personal connection to him from the forums. The etching on the Gramercy saw might be the most important thing to some guy or gal out there. Mike's medallions might be the bees' knees to others. (They are pretty nifty, aren't they?) In terms of general quality range, and pre-sharpening, I think that your rating list is pretty good. It is true, for instance, that the Thomas Flinn and R&L saws needs some work before they will cut on the level of the ones at the top of the list.

So what I like about your list is that you kept to groups/clusters listed in a relative manner, rather than a strict rating of "these are _the_ "best" saws.

-Andy

Criteria for judgement?

Bill Tindall, E.TN

>What criteria are people using to judge the saw quality of these entries, and what does "emerging high quality" mean?

Re: Everyone's sawing needs are different

Marv

>I wouldn't say that everyone's sawing needs are different because there is great commonality in sawing needs. However, there are for sure alot of different sawing needs.

Any saw can be made to saw wood. It's all in the sharpening of the teeth and equally important is the setting of the teeth. Rake angles and bevel angles are very important. All aspects regarding how well a saw cuts depends on what is being cut and how well the various filing techinques are applied accordingly.

Someone like Mike will want to know what kind of wood you will be sawing and he will customize the filing to do what the particular wood requires as far as rake angle and or bevel angle, how much set and of course the number of teeth per inch.

If you buy a saw from a production type manufacturing company, you will have to choose a saw that was made for general use. That saw will probably not do everything you want it to do. The same is true for any saw you buy. The point is, judging a saw's quality isn't a simple matter. The design of the handle is important but one shape doesn't fit every hand. So what is best for one person might be terrible for another. This aspect is complicated due to large hands versus small hands.

From what I see available from all saw makers these days, not enough thought is given to the shape and comfort that we see on saws that were made during the heyday of the major saw makers when competion was fierce during the late 1800,s and early 1900,s.

During the turn of the 19th century, the only way to saw a board on the job site was with a handsaw and carpenters would have one in their hand every hour of the day. A good smooth well radiused comfortable handle was of great importance, especially rip saws.

A large number of those guys sharpened their own saws. They sharpened them according to what they were using them for. Lots of set for framing saws for example and minimum set for finishing saws.

So you see, it's not a simple matter determining who is making the best saws these days. Any traditional saw being made today can be refiled and reset to do pretty much anything you can do with a handsaw or backsaw. The best saw will be based primarily on a personal preference. What looks good might not saw very well, while a lesser attractive saw will saw quite well. It will saw well if by chance you bought one that just so happens to be filed and set to suit the type of wood you are sawing.

If I were to buy a new saw today I would buy it from Mike. I would specify the number of teeth per inch and how much set I want and I would also specify the rake angle and bevel if it's a crosscut. And I would pay the extra money to have it taper ground. The fact that he will customize a saw for you puts him at the top of the list, in my book.

Marv

Re: Criteria for judgement?

Peter Evans in Sydney

>Good points:

"Emerging High Quality" means very small makers who make saws in their spare time, and have good reports on the Web for their saws.

"Criteria", well a start:

* steel quality for purpose

* care in manufacture

* how well handles feel in the hand, especially with long use

and then more broadly (and only Wenzloff scores well on both these)

* custom build for purpose and size of hand

* range of saws made

So lesser quality is:

# blocky machine cut handles that show little concern for the user

# unthinking machine sharpen and set (always too much set?)

# poor finishing

and harder to discover:

# cheaper steel plate

Thanks for all contributions, I think all other questions asked were answered by other people. Seems the makers list is pretty short; eventually the old saws will be used up/sit in collections, perhaps that will spur the industry.

Cheers

Peter

Medallion Toolworks

Jim Shaver - Oakville, Ontario

>Thanks Rick,

I just now realized Ed had named his saws Medallion Toolworks, I have been calling them Ed's Saws all this time.

Take care,

Jim

_your_ list isn't _mine_

VTAndy4

>It puts him on the top of _your_ list, not _the_ list. The point of my post is to say that there cannot be a single list with specific makers ahead of others, but rather, clusters of makers might be ranked to create a list that might serve as a reference to orient beginners to the current market of new saws.

Reading your post, I can think of a number of factors that may not be important to everyone. For instance, for someone capable of sharpening and re-toothing a saw, getting a maker to customize the teeth for specific woods may not be that important, so it wouldn't put him at the top of that person's list.

I repeat: everyone's sawing needs are different. There are a lot of people out there today who will not use a hand saw for ripping. Some use one for a short rip now and then but primary use a table saw. Some use tenon saws and dovetail saws, but never use saws beyond joinery. I use handsaws for nearly 100% of my sawing. So I repeat: everyone's sawing needs are different, and therefore, there can be no _one_ list. For someone on a budget and with moderate sharpening skills, that person's list would probably place Flinn as #1. I read these forums and a lot of people talking about sawing and dimensioning by hand, but if you read between the lines, I great number of people are actually using power tools when the going gets tough. I think that their requirements for a saw are different than mine.

A habit that is repeated on these boards is when someone says "If I were to buy _x_, I'd buy so-and-so's x." I've fallen into this as well, but I'm not sure that it's very healthy for Wood Central or any forum. How about, let's stick to "I would like to buy _x_, because it looks good to me even though I've never tried one, and for now I'm actually using _y_ because it works for my needs, which are _a_, _b_ and _c_." This might actually give readers a realistic idea of what is being done out there, rather than a fantasy of buying and displaying the coolest tools. It's really hard to know what's out there that is really being used.

I loved Mike's recent posts on other forums in which he featured a picture from a customer in Norway ripping wood with beautiful nature in the background. Last fall I ripped about 40' of 3"+ thick ash by hand. There were times when I wondered whether anyone else out there was doing such a thing. When I read these forums, there are certainly more posts about buying or evaluating this-or-that tool than there are about building something with the tools. That picture from Mike would have inspired me. I'm going to print it out and put it out in my workshop as a reminder that somewhere out there, someone spent the day ripping wood by hand when there are plenty of machines that would do the job.

A final note. I've been sawing pine boards for a chicken coop that I've been building. I've got a $25 Stanley saw from a hardware store that I use for that kind of rough work. It's a western-style saw with Japanese-style teeth. My observation over the last few days is that this saw really tears through the wood. I haven't tried it on hardwood, but crosscutting a 1x12, it can tear through nearly an inch per stroke. I'm amazed at what such a cheap saw can do. I'm not saying that it should be on the list above, but for the particular job that I was doing, it was _my_ #1.

-Andy

thanks

Bill Tindall, E.TN

>If I was buying a saw I would certainly want to avoid crappy handles, unusable teeth and poor steel. I hope you elaborate your criteria in what ever you are writing.

Re: _your_ list isn't _mine_

Paul Kierstead

>I'm not sure I understand your point. He isn't trying to tell people which is the best maker for their needs, he is trying to objectively rate them based on some somewhat impersonal, objective criteria. As always with any purchasing decision, you need to weigh the factors. The fact that a $300 custom saw might not be appropriate for a construction site sawing up 2x4's doesn't mean that it isn't the finest made one from a top maker; it just means it is probably not the best choice when economy and good sense enter into the equation. However, it will still probably be the most comfortable and best (where best is whatever you want it to be) at the job, assuming it was designed for cutting 2x4's. OTOH, some patience, sharpening skill and saavy will get you a classic saw that will do it just as well for less then a pint in downtown London. That *still* doesn't make the custom pricey saw maker not at the top of the list, it just means you can equal the results (functinally, possibly aesthetically for a few more bucks) in other ways. Ok, I am rambling a bit. Short version: A semi-ordered list of makers doesn't invalidate the saws one has, nor make them any less functional or beautiful, nor determines what is the best choice to buy.

Re: Medallion Toolworks

Norman (Metcalfe, Ont.)

>I have one of the pre- Medallion Toolworks engravings.

Does this make it an Ed's saw :)

Sorry couldn't resist,

Norman

Old saws used up?

Warren in Lancaster, PA

>Peter, you say "eventually the old saws will be used up/sit in collections". Don't hold your breath. Today I was sawing with a Disston my grandfather bought around 1908. I first used it in 1955 when I was 5. The handle feels pretty comfortable by this time. It is not wearing out any time soon.

I find it curious that there are makers high on your list with less than 10 years of professional sawmaking experience. Perhaps marketing is more important than experience. I also find it curious that you ranked saws that you had not sharpened, not set, not even sawed with. It would take me months of use to evaluate a new saw.

Re: _your_ list isn't _mine_

MikeW

>Hi Andy,

Here it is. We've also printed it out (a larger version, though) and hung it in the shop.

This is Siv. When this picture was taken, she had ripped some 260 feet of stock.

Take care, Mike

Re: thanks

Peter Evans in Sydney

>Other criteria:

* Ease of use and ergonomics. This one may be more subjective, and obviously there is only one way to know.

What is ease of use? Perhaps - starts well, cuts straight out of the wrapping, not fatiguing to use for long periods. Feels good in the hand.

* Works like saws from 100 years ago, after all the list is makers of traditional saws.

* how much work is required to get the new saw to work well (particularly relevant to beginners)

The article was originally going to be a simple list of makers with an indication of their product range and pricing where available. Might have to do more than this, judging by the very useful response.

Any amplification of the criteria gratefully received.

Thanks Peter

Re: Old saws used up?

Peter Evans in Sydney

>Old saws going .., yes a bit of a throwaway line.

Evaluating saws - good point. I have tested some of the saws on the list, and examined others. True I have only used extensively old saws I have restored and sharpened myself. I am also using published reviews from a number of sources. A robust refutation is welcome.

New sawmakers - interesting point; they have old saws for evaluation and copying (and hopefully a few improvements). So with requisite skill and dedication, and no doubt advice, and user feedback, not surprising that high (top?) quality traditional saws _can_ be produced.

Disclaimer: I have used few newish saws (all picked up from the flea market and all disappointing) and all moved on; and am perhaps lucky that I have found good cheap old saws and received guidance in how to sharpen them from an expert. I probably keep 1 in 5 of the saws I pick up, so lots of poor condition old saws out there to discourage beginners.

Cheers Peter

Re: Saw makers today

paul womack

>For some reason a lot of people over on the woodnet forum seem to make saws.

To what extent any of them are doing so for sale, or sale in any quantity, I don't know.

There's certainly a swell of interest in people making their own saws at the moment - I think woodworkers have belatedly realised that part of a really nice saw is the handle - and that's woodwork!!

BugBear