I read it somewhere....

Re: I read it somewhere....

Todd O. Cronkhite Maine Native, Presently Away

>I'm certainly not up on this, but I believe I read that Joseph used the jaw of a snake to saw wood.

Between then and now I'm sure many different things where used, from other bones to rocks. Many tools have been discovered from the ancient pyramids that give clues to at least what some people(s) where using.

All I can say is that if Joseph used jaw of a snake that must of been one big snake, unless of coarse perhaps a cocadile was considered to be a snake, or serpent. Interesting question tho I think.

T.O.

Re: I read it somewhere....

Marv

>Hi Todd,

They were building large wooden ships in those days. Wonder how they sawed all those big beams and how did they do all the ornate wood work on the inside of the captains quarters, etc.

Marv

Re: I read it somewhere....

Todd O. Cronkhite Maine Native, Presently Away

>Who's the "they" that your speaking of? The Egyptians?

I quite argree with you that remarkable things have been done without the aid of "metal tools" as we know them, and that does intrique me as well. I bet a lot of tools made of bone did allot of the carving.

Perhaps they chopped logs off with rock tools, then smoothed them with other stones such as sandstone. Boards can be split out of lags then smoothed with sandstones.

It must be remembered that according to evidence, what was accomplished way back when was done with/by thousunds of people all working to accomplish one task, and they did have simple machines that where driven by beasts of burden as well. I can see beasts of burden dragging huges chunks of sandstone blocks over planes/beams for smoothing.

T.O.

For ripping, I'd bet they depended on riving.

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>

Re: What is "riving"?.

Marv

>

Well about 1000 B.C.

Stephen Shepherd in the State of Deseret

>The iron age happened replacing the bronze age a somewhat improvement over the stone age. However nothing can eclipse the sharpness of obsidian.

Steel was introduced before the 12th century, probably much earlier. Meteoric iron can contain high carbon, be very hard and cooking it with organic matter, leather, etc will case harden the high carbon iron.

Both the Inca/Mayan and Egyptians could harden copper edge tools to a degree that has not been replicated.

Paleo people used the natural tendencies of the wood, such as splitting and bending green to produce complex wooden objects. Burning to remove wood and harden points made easy work.

Lashing, sewing and pegging joined components together. Coarse surfaces such as sandstone, sharkskin, shagreen and horsetails shape and smooth surfaces. Bone and antler burnish surfaces smooth. A little animal fat and a fine finish is achieved.

Now this is Neaner on steroids, hello cro-magnon.

Stephen

Like most times...

cooper suter

>...I chime in, I don't really know much, BUT....

I'm pretty confident that by the time of Christ (or his grandpa) metal saws as we would recognise them were in existence.

I recall Roman examples in texts (Mercer?) that would be from roughly that period.

By the last century BC, your well past the beginning of the iron age, and according to Wikipedia, steel was in existence in East Africa as early as 1400 BC.

They might not have had "Warranted Superior" steel to work with, but w/enough sharpening I imagine an iron saw would work, maybe even a copper one if need be.

It's a common conceit to think that just because everything we think of as civilised or technical wasn't in existance in another era, the people were any less intelligent, maybe not all literate, but not stupid and unable to organise, reason, and invent.

I understand one of Mercers main theories was that pre-industrial tools and types hadn't significantly changed in millenia and by studying tools from say 1750 AD, you could have understanding of craft work as it existed in 1000 AD, or 100 BC, etc.

Coop

Splitting w/the grain, like w/a froe

cooper suter

>

I type to slow *LINK*

cooper suter

>Stephen and I had convergent posts on this one.

My bibliography is in the link, and here;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steel

I just need to google saws next

Coop


Archaeological Periods chart

Re: I read it somewhere....

Marv

>The "they" of whom I am speaking would be anyone who built large boats or ships. It's impractical to think that huge beams were cut from trees using the jaw of a snake or anyother dead animal.

If you believe the story about Noah and the ark that he supposedly built, how did he end up with boards and beams from trees? That was one big vessel that required beams that had to have come from large trees. Kinda hard to believe they split the logs with a sharp rock or bones from animals. When one applies common sense and a little logical thinking to some of the details that was required to accomplish the things we read about in these old stories, we must conclude that most of it has to be suspect at least to some degree. In my mind..to a large degree. Even in this day and age if we attemped to build something like an Ark using only handtools, how would we do it? It would be a monumental task to say the least. Hand tools that we have today are very modern in comparison to what was in existance 2000 years ago or in Noah's life time.

As woodworkers we can easily relate to some of the difficulties we would encounter if we attempted to do what is described in some of the old stories. I find it interesting to ponder.

Marv

Re: Well about 1000 B.C. *LINK*

Todd O. Cronkhite Maine Native, Presently Away

>Marv,

Basically riving is splitting wood along the grain with a froe.

Hopefully my link will work.

T.O.


Riving

OK, we're back to the Greeks, and ancient Chinese *LINK*

cooper suter

>At least if you believe what you read on the internet.


Wiki Saws

Re: Like most times...

Todd O. Cronkhite Maine Native, Presently Away

>It's a common conceit to think that just because everything we think of as civilised or technical wasn't in existance in another era, the people were any less intelligent, maybe not all literate, but not stupid and unable to organise, reason, and invent.

that's exactly right Cooper, matter of fact there are still many things that where constructed in days gone by that have had "modern" smartguys scratching their noggins for decades now. Personally, I really like that, as it just goes to prove that no matter how "smart" we think we are there are accomplishments made by man that we cannot fiqure out, should keep most of us Humble IMO.

I also find it interesting that not long ago there was a 400 foot waterfall discovered in a california park, that was completely unknown! Yes, we've put man on the moon, and blah, blah, blah, and yet, still there are things on this planet that we yet don't know about.

T.O.

...."how would we do it?"....

cooper suter

>UH?.....w/hard work and sweat?

Nothing that monumental about a boat when compared to something truly monumental and produced way earlier like say..... the pyramids?

All of the ancient wonders were produced before (most WAY before) the era we're talking about.

The pyramids were built a half a millennium more before Christs' time than its been SINCE his time to ours.

Refer to my earlier post regarding modern conceit ;).

No offense, but how do most non-tradesmen think things are STILL being built today?

"Modern" tools and methods have not made good old heads down, brutal, never ending effort an obsolete part of a lot of projects.

Coop

Re: ...."how would we do it?".... *LINK*

cooper suter

>Oops, left out a link.

And, I hope I didn't sound to snarky Todd ;).

Coop


Ancient Wonders

Re: I read it somewhere....

Todd O. Cronkhite Maine Native, Presently Away

>When one applies common sense and a little logical thinking to some of the details that was required to accomplish the things we read about in these old stories, we must conclude that most of it has to be suspect at least to some degree.

Well Marv, in no attempt to be contentious, I just don't agree that anything about it has to be "suspect". I believe with very simple tools--as we know them--, that amazing things can be done. One point to consider is, who ever said that the boards of say Noah's Ark where as smooth as a baby's bum? We have gotten so used to it that most folks just can't imagine anything other then it, and that is just what I was speaking of a day or so ago.

I for one have never seen rock tools in action, but I certainly would not only like too, but to give them a whirl. I'm throughly convinced that good woodworking can be done with them and other natural substances and iron/steel tools can be totally excluded.

Now, with all that said, I'm sure that the rock tools where much more labor intensive, and that steel/iron tools where readily accepted when they became available, BUT that does not mean that they where necessary, just like a table saw isn't necessary today, but it's nice to have.

C'mon, you guys, those ancients were

Joanne Adler in Pt. Pleasant, PA

>visited by space aliens or extraterrestrials who had techno-geeky lasers and stuff to cut wood and do other amazing construction feats that we marvel at today. :-)

Re: I read it somewhere....

Sgian Dubh

>I find it interesting Marv that you doubt the ingenuity of mankind to built sound boats without the use of power tools.

Somewhat later than the legend of Noah I know, but the Vikings or Norsemen were sailing around the North Atlantic quite successfully in longships in the 900's- 1000's. Some people think they might even have travelled as far as the American Eastern seaboard to somewhere near what is now Florida. True, climate surely helped as it was much warmer then, and Greenland was greener so the hop from one marginally habitable land mass to another wasn't perhaps so intimidating as it would be now in an open boat using equivalent resources and supplies.

Still, those Vikings built seaworthy vessels using riven planks and whole logs. The vikings bent the planks to form the necessary shapes-- they probably used the wood green or learnt how to make it even more supple using heat and/or steam.

It's reckoned that in Europe not a single plank was sawn from a log until about 1100 AD. Nearly all planks must therefore have been riven, and a 25mm thick riven oak plank or board is as strong as a 50 mm thick sawn oak board. The nature of oak makes it a favourite for riving-- it splits relatively easily in a radial direction even with wooden wedges or bits of tapered stone and a handy mallet or rock to belt the wedges with.

It's also a myth that planks were won from ancient trees of huge girth in the Medieval period. Those woodworkers at the time couldn't handle large trees, plus big trees often have rotten hearts and other faults. The most popular timbers for building houses, ships and the like right up to about the 1500's or 1600's were trees with trunks between about 200 and 250 mm diameter- 8"- 10". This makes the trees about 40 to perhaps 75 years old in a typical British climate. Shipbuilding involved huge numbers of trees and workers. They found trees with natural crooks, parting of branches and bends in the trunk for specific parts and cut them down, prepared them and built with them.

The ability of man to build sophisticated structures using 'primitive' tools and huge knowledge and ingenuity shouldn't really be a surprise. Mankind has always been pretty smart. Slainte.

Re: I read it somewhere....

Moses Yoder in White Pigeon, MI

>The old testament talks about workers in metal, as well as the new testament. If I remember correctly, the Isrealite nation melted all of their gold and cast a golden calf while Moses was up on Mount Sinai I think getting the ten commandments. You know the more these stories are researched by modern science the more they are finding out that they could in fact be true. I will just go so far as to say that they will never be proven true because Jesus is meant to be accepted by faith. Faith is the evidence of things not seen. (Hebrews 1:1 I think.) But given that people were casting metal 2 or 3 "THOUSAND" years before Christ's time, I would think that there were some who figured out how to make hardened steel. It was just not a reliable or high production method until about a 1000 years after Christ. A carpenter in Jesus' time I think would have had a hatchet type of tool to cut tenons on the ends of logs and some type of boring tool to make a mortice, and that would be all he would need. You could rive boards for chair seats and table tops similar to making shingles, which was still common in the late 19th century. Roofs were thatched I think, although I am not a history major; or minor, for that matter. Imagine that. The problem I think is that often times pictures are drawn of those times and the pictures are just someone's imagination and the buildings would not look anything like what most people think buildings should look.

Puddling furnaces

Andrew F in Australia

>Hi Marv,

They used to make a high carbon pool of iron by building a small furnace about 5 feet high by 2 feet round. Pack the inside with charcoal and iron ore, insert a bellows into the bottom of the furnace and find a convenient slave to work the bellows for about 6 hours straight.

After 6 hours, break open the tap hole at the bottom of the furnace, remove slag, seal taphole, blow for an hour or so more, then open taphole and remove slag - a 1kg or so lump of iron remains.

This iron is high in carbon and needs to be wrought (hammered in air while glowing orange hot) to drive out the carbon (burn it out.)

After enough cycles, you get a crude steel, or, if you keep going, you get a pretty well carbon free steel - wrought iron.

This is how 'they' did it.

Cheers,

Andrew

Re: Puddling furnaces

Stephen Shepherd in the State of Deseret

>The description you used was correct to produce wrought iron which is iron and not steel.

The iron is processed further to make it harder by putting carbon back into the iron in a controlled manner.

Iron was used for centuries before the technology was developed to make steel. Iron was an improvement over bronze. When steel was made it was expensive and used only on the cutting edges, such as laid steel plane 'irons'. The 'iron' is mostly wrought iron with a thin veneer of steel laid on the face.

Stephen

forgot to say

Andrew F in Australia

>that crucible steel was made in about 1720(?) on, the invention of the acidic (Bessemer) process occurred simultaneously in England (Bessemer) and continental Europe (Germany???) about 1855 - 1860. This meant that steel could be produced in tonnage quantities for the first time, and this development spurred another rapid increase in industrial growth.

CHeers,

Andrew

Thanks Todd for the link

Marv

>Riving......I grew up in the logging and milling industry. Never heard the word "Riving". Todd, the link was most helpful to understand what Riving" is all about. It's a little more understanding how the boat builders of old produced those large planks and beams. I guess that riving didn't require a high grade steel for axes and wedges. Riving explains my initial questions about saws and how they managed to process lumber from trees. However, there's still a question regarding how they cut cross grain. Was it all done with axes?

Marv

Re: I read it somewhere....

Ernie Miller

>Seems to me that I saw on the discovery channel bronze saws and chesels that have been found that were used for cutting the stone used in the pyramid and oter structures. it is also trur that they had bronze deills to drill holes in the stone where they then placed dry reeds and wood water was added to force the stone to have controlled cracks. Man has been a lot snarter than you may think fro a lot longer than you may think. Good question that got awfull clost to the politicas and religen ban here. I have enjoyed the responses and peoples ability to stay away from them topics. Good job people!