Saw ethics

Re: Saw ethics

Marv

>Hi David,

Most older saws are tapered evenly from bottom to top and from the handle to the toe. If the blades are not too rusty and pitted, some people make smaller saws out them or cut them up and make scrapers and other tools that require the harder spring steel. So even if they are filed to a point at the toe end, they are still useful to some people.

Some of those screws might not be as tight as they look, especially if they are brass. Sometimes it works to lay a 50 grit piece of sandpaper on the screw head and clamp over it with a piece of wood. The sandpaper will grip just enough so the nut will loosen. The medallions are saleable but so are the saw screws. Most of the nuts will have a very thin slot. So you won't bugger them up, you need to grind a screwdriver blade down so it's thinner.

If you can save the handles, some of the old Applewood can be used for repairing other handles. It's difficult to find Applewood nowadays.

Marv

Re: Saw ethics

Martin from Granbury

>Good question...

I have an H. Disston, no sons. IIRC the the handle is in pretty good shape, and so is the back, but the blade is trashed. Very rusty and pitted.

What I was thinking about is getting someone like Mike W. to do surgery on it and replace the blade. No, I wouldn't try to pass it off as original, my intent is not to defraud anyone. I would like to restore it to useable condition for my own use.

OK, fire away! Is what I am considering unethical? Bad idea? Ok idea?

I cannot imagine the saw is worth more than the $25 I paid for it in its present condition. I would just like the idea of using a very old saw (with a new blade, of course).

Thanks for your comments.

Re: Saw ethics

Marv

>Hello Martin,

You are talking my language.....I buy saws on eBay and restore them and then resell them. And I have done some custom restoring for a number of guys. Your blade just might be salvagable. I straighten and clean them and sharpen them. If the blade is pitted, the saw can still be made to saw again. Has nothing to do with ethics. It's all about what you like as being the owner of that old guy. If you like, send me a picture of it. Sometimes I can tell alot from a picture. You can use my email address above.

Marv

Re: Saw ethics

Todd O. Cronkhite Maine Native, Presently Away

>I don't see anything "unethical" about any of this to both David and Martin. As long de-frauding is not your intent, than hey, nothing is Unerthical about modifing/reusing parts, or selling off parts to old, beatup, tired saws IMO. Now. if the saw is in mint shape than any butchery other then perhaps changing the teeth from cross cut to rip or vice versa is IMO unethical.

Really sometimes tho, we get a bit to worried about little things like this. In the end it's nothng more than a piece of sheet metal with my little notched filed into it, with a shaped block of wood attached to it.

Use it, modify it to your needs, and enjoy it. If it's truly Historical, either put it into your private collection, or sell it off for big $$$ and use that found $$$ to buy more tools is what I say.

T.O.

Re: Saw ethics

Marv

>Todd,

I totally agree with everything you said. The way I look at it..."it's my saw" or whatever tool. I make it so it looks and feels and performs the way I like it. Like everything of this nature we'll never agree with or satisfy everyone we come in contact with. That's what helps make it so interesting with the old tool thing. The problem comes into play when we start trying to guess how someone else feels about what we are doing to a tool. You should see what I do to some of the old saws I restore. It's mainly a matter of degree that depends on a whole lot of things. Like you said, if it's a really old saw and is in great condition, then why change it? It will already look and feel good, all it usually needs is sharpening so it will function well again. And sometimes you don't even do that. This is a subject that is similar to discussing religion or politics. So many different opinions. It can get downright personal with some people. There are those who will actually get in your face about something you did to an old tool that doesn't even belong to them. It's just silly. Yep, metal and wood, that's about it.

That's my story and I'm stick'n to it....

Marv

Martin.....one more thing

Marv

>Martin,

I have alot of old saw blades that are in good condition. Your handle could be made to fit an old blade that is not too worn. Keep in mind that the older saws were taper ground. If you buy a new blade you will probably pay extra to have it taper ground. A taper ground saw doesn't require as much set in the teeth. Less set gives you a much smoother cut, especially in hardwoods. You might consider going on eBay and buy an old saw real cheap and redrill it to fit your handle. Keep in mind though, the metal will be pretty hard and will probably require a carbide drill.

Marv

Re: Saw ethics

Moses Yoder in White Pigeon, MI

>It's is not so much an ethics question as it is personal taste. I think where there are no people or animals involved other than yourself, ethics would be totally removed from the equation. To me a brand spanking new blade with a vintage handle would not look right, so I would not enjoy using it. I would be looking for a vintage saw with a bad handle. I have found some pretty nice vintage saws but had to pay around $15 or so for them at M-WTCA meets, whereas a run of the mill saw can be had for $5 or less. I do find myself dreaming of those droolworthy saws that Mike is building though.

Ha ha ha ha................

VLParisian

>I just "knew" you were going to refer back to the post about the Workshop Rules number 7 was along the lines of "If you suspect that the board you are about to cut has nails in it. Cutting is best done with a borrowed saw." Now that is hand saw ethics or lack thereof...

Victor - in Hot and Humid Houston

Re: Saw ethics

Ernie Miller

>I don't see where rthics has any thing to do with it at all. I consider ethics as how you deal with people. this is an object that you own not the world. if you want to modify it go ahead. ethics only comes into play if you are modifying it to take advantage some one. DO what you want with the saw. Use a Picasso for a table cloth if you want if it is yours do what you want with it. you really owe no one any thing.

Re: Saw ethics

Marv

>Hi Ernie,

Perhaps instead of the word "ethics" or "ethical" we should use the word "stupid". In other words, would it be stupid to use a Picasso for a tablecloth? Or would it be stupid to paint a Panther Head saw John Deere green? Would it be stupid to save the saw nuts on David's old beat up worthless saws? I think it's stupid to paint a picture on a Disston #12 handsaw blade for example, but the person who did the painting didn't think it was stupid. Sometimes it's obviously stupid and sometimes borderline stupid. Obvious to whom though? Is it in the eye of the beholder? It could be in the eye of a stupid beholder or in the eye of an ignorant beholder or in the eye of an uninformed beholder. Stephen feels it is a matter of respect for the tool and it's maker. But respect doesn't enter the equation until one is informed and knowlegable of the item in question. If one is knowledgable and he uses a Picasso as a tablecloth he is stupid. If he is ignorant and uses it as a tablecloth he isn't stupid, just uninformed. Somewhere in this mix of jibberish might be the answer to our delemma when it comes to what and how much to do with an old tool. All David wanted to know was, what to do with a pile of junk saws and whether or not they might be considered to have some value to a knowlegable person. I'm definitely not inferring that David is stupid, quite the contrary, he is being respectful enough to at least ask some questions.

Respectfully,

Marv

Re: Saw ethics

mike siemsen

>I cannot imagine the saw is worth more than the $25 I paid for it in its present condition. I would just like the idea of using a very old saw (with a new blade, of course).

This reminds me of the story of the man who owned George Washington's hatchet. At different times through the years the handle and head had been replaced.

Mike

Re: Saw ethics

Ernie Miller

>There is a question I can answer IF the handles are shot save the saw nuts! there are people all ways wanting them and split nuts are even more sought after. as others have said save the steel for scrapers or make dovetail or stair saws out of them. Save the apple wood like others have said if you plan on repairing some old saws if not throw them in a bucket of watter for a few days then toss them on the coals when you grill some chicken. Mmm Chicken!

Re: Saw ethics

Stephen Shepherd in the State of Deseret

>I may regret getting involved in this thread, well here goes. I find that most saw handles are terribly uncomfortable, the only really good ones are quite early, rare and valuable. All of those I sell.

However I use hand saws everyday and have taken fairly old saws and replaced their damaged or missing handles. I try and never pay over $3.00 for a saw unless it is real sweet. One of the nicest ones I bought at an arts festival. Had a lovely bucolic scene painted on the side. I paid the price, not too bad for art, carefully removed the painting and tripled my money.

I have four panel saws that i regularly use, two cross cut and two rip. I have replaced their handles with earlier styles and fewer old bolts and sized and shaped to fit my hand. I have refiled a few nickers and use them for their intended purpose, nicking. I also polish the blades to get a good reflective surface for square cutting.

Stephen

Don't know about Picasso....

John in New Mexico

>But a Pollock could probably be mistaken for an old drop cloth fairly easily...

Re: Saw ethics

Todd O. Cronkhite Maine Native, Presently Away

>I also polish the blades to get a good reflective surface for square cutting.

that's an interesting bit o' onfo Stephen. Tell us, before polishing these saw blades, are they completely devoid of any shiney plating material, or do they still have most of it and that is what you're (re)shining?

Seems to me that even if a saw blade is devoid of it, than it could in fact still be turned back into a reflective surface using the proper polishing materials. What are you using, and what are your methods/techinques?

T.O.

Re: Saw ethics

Stephen Shepherd in the State of Deseret

>Todd,

Most old saws were finished bright, like draw filing to a shiney surface. It is not a mirror, you can't shave with it but it helps for several reasons. First of all bright iron and steel does not tend to rust as readily as dull iron. Second it allows the blade to pass smoothly through the kerf and most important provides the refective surface to indicate a square cut.

I start with the coarsest sandpaper required to get the crud off, 100, the roughest, then 220 then 320 and that is enough for me. I make sure I sand in nice straight motions to give a uniform shine without swirls or arcs.

You may need to lightly oil your blades, out here we don't. I do wipe off blades after I use them on wet or green wood. I even brush off any residue just to keep any problems from happening.

Stephen

Re: Saw ethics

Todd O. Cronkhite Maine Native, Presently Away

>Thanks for the info Stephen, I was my blades, and that far has kept them from humidity damage, plus I keep them in a box. How ever it is my flea market finds that need reconditioning that drives me to inquire.

Do you use the paper free hand? I'm thinking I'll use one of those rubber auto body sand blocks. Gonna give it a spin one a non=salvageable blade first. Thanks again,

T.O.

OK...I give up! What's a nicker?

Stuart Hough

>And the next question...how do you use it? I have read articles on old saws, but there has never been an explanation as to the use of the nicker. Please excuse my obvious ignorance.

Re: OK...I give up! What's a nicker?

MikeW

>Hi Stuart,

I think Stephen is calling the nib a nicker. If so, he is stirring the pot of opinion as to their "intended" purpose .

And everyone knows their intended purpose is ...

Take care, Mike

Re: OK...I give up! What's a nicker?

Stephen Shepherd in the State of Deseret

>The nicker is the decorative and functional nub on the thin end of the saw on the opposite side of the teeth. It is intended to make a nick prior to beginning the cut. The saw is inverted, a thumb nail aligns the blade and a motion forward or backward causes the nub to nick the edge giving a starting place for the saw cut to begin. Our ancestors were smart and didn't always do things as we imagine. Everything is functional, and it can look good at the same time.

All else is piffle.

Stephen

Curious

Wiley Horne--So. Calif.

>Anyone ever come across a nib that had been filed or sharpened?

Wiley ... who thinks nibs tell you when your saw has been retracted too far, esp. in green wood.

Re: Curious

MikeW

>Hi Wiley--I've seen a few that were either sharpened on purpose or as part of filing the back of the saw (and easing its edge as in rounding over). The easing of the back can help provide easier withdraw in wholly woods and using a coarse saw (catchest the ripples of the kerf less).

Using the nib to provide a starting kerf is why, I am pretty certain, so many are busted off. Needing to provide a starting kerf indicates a dull saw or poor technique. No offense meant to anyone.

Wanting to provide a start kerf is a different matter.

Take care, Mike

Re: OK...I give up! What's a nicker?

Stuart Hough

>Thanx, Steve. But I thought a piffle was a poot inta a seat cushion. The kind you let out real slow so no-one can hear!?!?!

( Yeah, I know have a strange sense of humor!)

Re: OK...I give up! What's a nicker?

Moses Yoder in White Pigeon, MI

>Every business is run by business managers and not people who actually work for a living. Or at least not the work that I call work. These people tend to be much less practical than people who work for a living. I have sat in many of these meetings so I know first hand about how they go, and it is not normally very pretty. I can see these men setting around the Disston conference table looking at some saw made out of someone's garage, and it has a nib on it. When this guy made the saw he had accidentally broken off a small piece at the end as he was hammering out the blade, and he looked at it and said "Hey, that's kind of neat looking. I think I'll just round it a little and make it looked like I planned it that way." The Disston guys all look at each other and say "What is the NIB for?" Well, since none of them will admit that they actually have no idea what it is for, they each come up with some outlandish reason of why the nib actually has a purpose. And from then on they had to have them on their saws as well.