Holtzapffel bench by Chris *LINK*

Re: Holtzapffel bench by Chris

Adam Cherubini, NJ

>I'm not Chris, but I work on a similar bench.

You said that the dog holes in the left and right legs were useful; but with that face vise, such use of the right leg is obviated.

I didn't follow you here. You can remove the vise and just use the holdfasts, so you want the holes. And its nice to have the holes in the leg between the screws. You rest down on a holdfast (or peg), then squeeze against the front face with the screws. I don't like to push against friction when I don't have to. (Sorry if I'm answering a question you didn't ask)

You also said a door could be mounted in the vise. Well maybe so, but only if vertical, because the twin screws get in the way of mounting anything more than a foot or so deep.

I think he was meaning vertical, but you can mount it horizontally. You don't have to be between the screws to get clamp pressure. Left alone, the garterless twin screw acts like a killer, adjustable crochet. A piece of scrap placed opposite the work piece will allow you to clamp like a leg vise.

This is a good bench. I could pick apart a few features I think Schwarz screwed up, but I think the basic design is commendable. The question is, is it really the most effiicient way to make a bench that does what you need?

As I know you know, Pam, Chris is coming out with a book that may help answer some of these sorts of questions. I've been complaining on this forum for a long time about Landis' "The Workbench Book". Though I've only seen one chapter of Schwarz' book, I can tell you it looks like it has the analysis that I wanted to see. It seems more user based, and not esthetic based like Landis' book.

Adam

P.S. Just so everybody knows, I write for Chris' magazine. So cynics, feel free to discount what I'm saying about his book. But fear of the appearance of a conlict of interest isn't going to prevent me from saying something nice about a book that looks like a must have.

Boy I dislike TV

Christopher Schwarz

>Pam,

When I write for print, I get to ponder it for a long time before ink goes to paper. When I write for video, ideas get compressed into sometimes-unrecognizable forms. Sorry you got tripped up by this.

Here's how I clamp doors to work on edges. I put a holdfast or Wonder dog in the right leg. Then I rest the door on the holdfast (or clamp it to the leg with the holdfast) and pinch the leading edge with the face vise. This works with doors up to about 48" long. After that, things get a little wobbly and I resort to removing the face vise and working "Roubo style" as Adam suggests.

The approach usually keeps the edge of the door no more than an inch or two above the benchtop. I don't like to work up high either.

I've been using the Roubo, Nicholson and Holtzapffel benches a lot these last six to seven months. And I think that all three offer excellent solutions to the problems posed by commercial benches (and those benches that are copies of commercial factory benches).

So I don't think there is "one bench to rule them all." The Holtzapffel has some issues. As do all the others. But when stacked against a generic "European" bench, there's not much contest.

I hope this has helped a bit.

Chris

Re: Boy I dislike TV

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>I wasn't really tripped up as such, it's more like I didn't realize it was fair game to talk about 4' doors and removing vises. You may want to think about fleshing out the video a bit. :)

Thanks,

Pam

Re: Holtzapffel bench by Chris

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>Thanks, Adam. Yes, the vise can act like an adjustable crochet, and I suppose that's fine if the door is 4' long.

Which features do you think Chris screwed up?

I know his book is coming out real soon now, look forward to it.

Pam

Re: Boy I dislike TV

Jim Shaver - Oakville, Ontario

>Hey Chris,

Just wanted to say I love that video, it is a great bench for those who desire some of that.

I am wondering where you got the wood screws? Are they Howard Card's?

The face twin screw vise reminds me of the Dunbar bench vise he published in FWW a few years ago.

Thanks,

Tak ecare,

Jim

Wooden screws

Christopher Schwarz

>Jim,

I sure hope I didn't mess up by choosing the wooden screws because I sure do like them a great deal. I tried to order screws from Howard, but by the time I had my act together, he had stopped making the screws.

The ones on the bench were purchased from a guy on oldtools, who bought them from another guy many years ago....

I do know that woodworker Stephen Fee is now making runs of wooden screws. He sent me one to look at and it was beautiful.

You can contact Stephen at sfee13@verizon.net for details. Nice guy. He also has a bench problem....

Chris

Re: Wooden screws

Jim Shaver - Oakville, Ontario

>Thanks Chris,

I have in my inventory several extra bench screws from Howard for any future bench I may build. As you know the ones in my Shaker bench were made for me by Howard.

It's good to know of another source now.

Take care,

Jim

Re: How twin screws work (long)

Adam Cherubini, NJ

>I think there's an advantage to getting the screw heads as close to the top of the bench as possible. This is what we see on the Dominy benches for example. I don't have Holzapfel in front of me, but I would be surprised to see his screws where Chris put his.

I think its safe for all of us to assume that Chris is a smarty pants. Getting the screws higher means either boring a big hole in the bench, or trenching the bottom. These are complicated and structurally compromising things to do. So I can understand why Chris would do what he did. He's looking out for teh folks who don't have razor sharp 1-3/4" ship augers laying around.

I bored the front of my bench (laminated beech, 18" deep, fun stuff), which is the better of the two choices, structurally. But a piece of steel covering the trench with many tight fitting screws would go far in restoring a trenched bench's section properties.

What we want is to clamp behind the large screw heads, never above. When you clamp above, the moment (the offset between the applied pressure and the centerline of the screw) is reacted by the fit between the screw's shaft and the hole in the jaw (cheek). Any amount of play will cause the jaw to rack. No matter how tight the fit is, that joint will wear and quickly because the pressure applied to the work will be multiplied in the joint between screw and cheek.

When you clamp behind the screw, you get no racking, only static deflections. So a large diamter hardwood screw is the answer to stopping the deflection and again, that's exactly what we see in the Dominy benches.

Now what I'm saying there has nothing to do with where the vise is, only where the work is in relation to the screws. But once you recognize where you want the work to be clamped, its easy to see why you need the screws as high as possible. My screw heads are only about 1/2" below the top surface of my bench. So I can firmly clamp a 1" stick in my twin screw.

Adam

Re: Wooden screws

Roy Anderson

>Hi, Chris.

I have been wanting to make a bench with big wooden screws like that. Thanks for the tip on where to find them. However, what did you do to tap the other side?

Also, I read in one of Roy Underhill's books that you can cut big screws by hand by wrapping a strip of paper around a dowel and tracing the edge and then chisel out the threads. I was almost tempted to try that, but I just don't think I could get the threads in enough tolerance to work very well. Also I just don't think I could cut a nut with enough precision to match the threads without a proper die.

Re: How twin screws work (long)

Christopher Schwarz

>Adam is 100 percent correct. The closer the screws are to the benchtop, the narrower the stuff you can clamp.

I put the screws directly below the top (3-1/2" from the top edge) for two reasons: Ease of installation, natch. And because most of my work on narrow stock occurs directly on the benchtop and (I know Adam is wincing right now) pinched between an end vise and dog.

Many dead French and English cabinetmakers are now spinning in their graves.

I designed the particulars of this bench to be fast to build and accomplish the widest range of cabinetmaking operations possible.

But, as I said, Adam is 100 percent right. I pondered long and hard how to get those screws higher without introducing complications.

Boy it's nice to talk about this stuff with people who aren't rolling their eyes (at least that I can see). Don't you love the internet? You can't see the eye-rolling!

Chris

Re: Wooden screws

Christopher Schwarz

>Roy,

Stephen's screws come with the tapped nut. You just ahve to bolt it or dovetail it into your top.

I've also seen Roy's description. Someday....

Chris

Maybe we need a new animated icon? :)

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>

Re: How twin screws work (long)

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>I see, thanks for the explanation, interesting job trenching the top.

Pam

Re: How twin screws work (long)

Warren in Lancaster, PA

>Adam, this bench reminded me of the Dominy benches as well. The Dominy benches were made (in East Hampton, Long Island) about 100 years earlier than the Holtzapffel text. I am not sure there was any French influence in 18th century East Hampton, but they have the flush legs and heavy undercarriage as well. They are longer than Chris' bench- I think one is more than twice as long. I think those long twin screw vises do best on longer benches because you would still have a long strip of bench unencumbered by the vise. I don't think removing the vise would be practical unless there was a big pile of repetitive work so that changing over was not frequent. Compared with machine work, there is lack of set up time in hand work. Even walking around to the other side of the bench would be nuisance to somebody who was really moving.

Re: How twin screws work (long)

kees

>Boy it's nice to talk about this stuff with people who aren't rolling their eyes (at least that I can see). Don't you love the internet? You can't see the eye-rolling!

Chris

I like the digital world. woodworkers with Wenzloff's are not from the Middle Ages. And....soon your boss will see the light;-)

Fabulous Line of Info!!!

Paul Kierstead

>This was a really interesting line of information, I'd like to thank the participants. The finer points of bench design are quite interesting. I've looked at a lot of bench designs over the last couple of years, keeping an eye out for one that I like and this is the first one that really caught my eye. I look forward to the article, and maybe someone who can provide a good method for moving the screw up. Adam's idea of troughing (ok, maybe not a real word) and then strengthening with a steel plate sounds promising.

What size wooden screws did you use?

Wendell @ Murphy, TX

>Chris,

What size wooden screws do you recommend for a twin screw face vise? I procrastinated about ordering screws from Howard Card and never got any. I want to get in th queue for Stephen Fee's wooden screws. I imagine there will be a rush on his product after your Holtzapffel bench article comes out.

Wendell

P.S. - Chris the Tool Pusher strikes again. You know you're not helping your cause with WivesAgainstSchwarz.com

Re: What size wooden screws did you use?

Christopher Schwarz

>Stephen's screws are 2-1/2" d. and 12" long I believe. The ones on my bench are 2" d. I like his better, but mine work fine.

Chris

The New Oral Tradition of Apprenticeship

David Churnega

>

Re: clearance holes

Adam Cherubini, NJ

>Chris,

My concern about the screw diameter is how we would bore a (clearance) hole large enough for such a screw. Do you guys have access to very large bits? Can such bits be driven with a hand held drill motor or is a drill press required?

With a Nicholson bench, you mount the nut behind the relatively thin apron. You could cut the clearance hole with a coping saw if you had to. But if you wanted to drill the leg for example that would be trickier.

Adam

Re: clearance holes

Warren in Lancaster, PA

>For large bits a brace does not have leverage enough to power through any but the softist material. I usually use a T shaped handle about 24 inches long, made out of a turned stick of hardwood.

In timber frame work, where the holes are in the range of 2 inches or more, I have used several methods. The one I liked the best is a T handle with a rachet inside, nice because you can use the length of arc where you have the most power. Another is a machine that sits on the timber and has a hand crank on each side. I found this tiring, but maybe you could get used to it. Yet another way is a huge electric drill with a handle on each side. There was so much power that as you held the drill you had to brace your hands against your legs just to hold on to the thing. I was usually happy to let someone else handle this drill.

I suspect thati historicl times workbenches were made with planks that were still somewhat green. One of the Dominy benches has a top that is a single plank 6"X18"X12'. I don't think they waited a decade for it to dry out. In the days before our modern augers I think a modest size hole was enlarged with a seies of larger bits. We use this enlarging technique in making waterpipes and pump shafts.

Re: clearance holes

Christopher Schwarz

>Adam,

We don't have the tooling in our shop to make a 2"-diameter hole that deep in hardwood. Nor do we have a tap that diameter. Constraints like this pushed me into my design choices.

I considered hogging out a big trench in the underside and then dovetailing the tapped blocks into the front edge of the top. In fact, this is probably what I would have done if I didn't have an end vise, which handles the narrow stock with aplomb. Really!

Chris

Re: clearance holes

Moses Yoder in White Pigeon, MI

>I can see now that this whole debate has just convinced me of the validity of the shoulder vice. I was thinking of variations of vises last night that would overcome the problems mentioned, and have not come up with anything better than the standard shoulder vise. The Holtzapfel bench you had in Edwardsburg is very nice and probably works well for you, but for me a well built shoulder vice would work better and faster than the twin screw vise.

Interesting side note and possibility

Dave Anderson Chester, NH

>Hi Warren, There actually was a real possibility of French influence in 18th century NYC and Long Island. A good number of skilled Huegenots fled France after one of the early 18th century King Louis repealed the Edict of Nantes which had offered them religious freedom. Many Eboniste settled in NYC and surrounding areas and some of their design and construction influences are apparent in NY furniture of the mid to late 18th century. There was a good article about this several years ago in one of the issues of Luke Bekkeerdite's (sp) American Furniture.