Workbench {Long}

Interesting, got any pics?

Denis Ch�nard, Orl�ans, Ont.

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Re: Workbench {Long}

Jack Guzman from Maine

>I totally agree. I tried a tool tray for two years.The only reason it lasted that long is because I thought maybe if I improved my work habits it might work.Wrong!! I call it the horizontal rule.If there is a place for stuff to accumulate,it will.I have four benches in my shop.Three are solid hardwood doors that I attached to walls and put legs under.Periodically I find myself with no space to work and have to do a major cleanup.---Jack

Re: Workbench {Long}

Michael Recchione

>I've been ready to buy-in to the no tail vise philosophy, and am planning not to have one on my new bench (once I get around to starting it, which will hopefully be this coming Fall or Winter). But why no face vise of any kind? I'm trying to picture working without one and am having a hard time. Yes, I can see holding things to an apron with holdfasts and clamps, but I have to ask: Why? What's the advantage? I can see where the tail vise can get in the way for sawing. But what does the face vise get in the way of?

Re: Workbench {Long}

Dean J in MN

>I can see where the tail vise can get in the way for sawing. But what does the face vise get in the way of?

In some cases a face vise gets in the way of jointing long boards on my bench. Of course, I have a crochet on the front left and my twin screw is on the front right.

The twin screw is great for carcass joinery, I have over 20 inches between the screws which means (most) case sides fit in without issue. I can clamp out cup, etc. I've been working on cabriole legs recently -- this is the first task I've run into where I can't seem to find an easy alternative to having a face vise of some sort. Roughing out the legs with a drawknife would have been difficult without a face vise. I suppose a hatchet would work, no need for a vise. I'll have to try that with my next set. Cutting the leg posts, which is more or less the same operation as a tenon cut, could have been done by clamping the leg to the front of the bench, but I just held the leg with the vise and cut the posts. Same for the slipper feet these legs have. I clamped onto the leg posts and cut the foot profile. I'm not saying the legs couldn't have been made without a face vise, but I'd struggle to do so with the tools I had on hand.

Perhaps this is a glimpse into the difference between a cabinetmakers bench and a joiners bench?

-Dean

Re: Workbench {Long}

Michael Recchione

>I'd have the same issue with carving stuff - a vise of some kind is really a must. But even for "joiners" applications, I don't see the advantage of not having the vise - I see workarounds to be able to make do without it, but no compelling reason NOT to have it. Landis hypothesized that the few seconds you save between boards by having a crochet instead of a vise would make a difference in what amounted to a pre-industrial millwork factory. But I never bought the argument - it amounted to a minute or two a day of time saved in the production shop, and a totally irrelevant difference in a home hobby shop.

Is there actually an ADVANTAGE to not having a face vise?

Re: Workbench {Long}

Dean J in MN

>I'd suggest a crochet has advantages aside from the time factor alone. But it starts to drift into a nearly metaphysical realm, best talked about over cold beer.

I see no disadvantage to a twin screw or leg vise on a bench. Even the Roubo bench sported a leg vise as an option. I had your basic Record face vise on my last bench -- and hated it. I can live at peace with my twin screw (even if I wish it were garterless wood screws rather than metal and gartered).

-Dean

How many?

Michael Recchione

>How many beers does it normally take before a conversation can safely start to drift into how having no holding devices permits a craftsman to develop a more personal bond with the wood, kind of relationship of equals, joined in the common purpose of creating beauty? :-)

A bench in my shop that I use on occasion

Stephen Shepherd in the State of Deseret

>There are two of these benches in my shop, I did not make them. They are left handed and difficult to use. One has been raised up to a more workable level. The lower one is great for kids to plane boards.

Stephen

My Joiner's Bench

Stephen Shepherd in the State of Deseret

>This is my last iteration from the back, although difficult to see it has big dovetails, I glued it together and have intended to peg it but haven't got around to it yet. The hide glue seems to be holding just fine.

Stephen

Re: My Joiner's Bench

Stephen Shepherd in the State of Deseret

>This is the bench from the front showing the wide apron. The pattern makers vice is movable and can be used on any holdfast/peg hole. The small metal working vice in the foreground. The human figure is a penny wooden doll, not finish painted.

As you can see the flat surfaces are susceptable of accumulations. I am testing some grease lamps accounting for the clutter.

Stephen

Re: How many?

Dean J in MN

>I always seem to lose count. :)

Re: How many?

Dave Anderson Chester, NH

>The answer is pretty simple. It goes directly from too few beers to too many!! ;-))

That seems like exactly the right number! :-)

Michael Recchione

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Re: Workbench {Long}

Moses Yoder in White Pigeon, MI

>Mr. Schwartz mentioned that Popular Woodworking will be doing a publication on workbenches that I think is coming out this fall. He had a bench at Edwardsburg similar to the Holtzaffel workbench that I think will be detailed. It is a simple bench but has a twin screw vice on the left used for face clamping and a metal Record type vice on the right if I remember correctly with a row of dog holes. I am woodworking as a hobby, not as a challenge, so the idea of not having vices does not appeal to me at all ;) I want my blood pressure to go down, not up. Popular Woodworking also has a good general article on benches in the recent June '07 issue that explains pretty well what a good bench must be capable of doing. I have a small bench which I do not plan on putting any vices on. I will probably add a hook on the left and strategically placed dog holes in a front apron and the top and get a few different holdfasts. To dovetail on a bench with no face vice you would need a dog hole in the front apron and then just use a holdfast to clamp the board with the end extending above the bench top. Lee Valley has a recently new neat hold down that clamps into a round hole and grips very securely. I want a portable but sturday bench for doing demos around the area, which was the purpose of building the bench, but I suppose it can end up also being an experiment in the no vice bench.

dovetailing on a virtuous bench

Michael Recchione

>One approach for working on a bench with no vices is to have a variety of jigs and fixtures that clamp to the bench when you need them. The Workbench Book show's one guy's solution for dovetailing, where he made a clamp-on twin screw vise patterned on a bookbinder's clamp. I had taken a similar approach with a small bench that I made a couple of years ago - it had only a face vise and two large Record holdfasts on top. I made a bunch of special workholding gizmos that were either held in the face vise or held to the benchtop. It's not a bad system, particularly if a single bench has to do many things. But I still don't see the point of not having a face vise - it's just too convenient to have one, and I can't think of a single time I wished it wasn't there.

Re: dovetailing on a virtuous bench

Todd O. Cronkhite Maine Native, Presently Away

>But I still don't see the point of not having a face vise

Well, I dunno, perhaps it is nothing more than a desire for simplicity. Well, perhaps simplicity isn't the right word, perhaps Traditional would be better. I imagine way way back in the deep mists of Time a metal shoulder vise as we know it today would of simply been unheard of, but on the other hand a wooden screw to make a simple vise would not of been. Once the processes for casting a metal vise come along, than yes-perhaps it became more of a common bench fixture. Was probably easier and faster to go to the locqal merchant plop down a few dabloom, and WA-LA!! got a vise with no other work involved other than installing it.

No, in these current times of folks travelling about doing demo's weight certainly becomes and issue as well.

I have a metal shoulder vise on my bench only because I had bought it 20 years ago, but I am more than certain that I could do very well without it by using only handscrews. One to hild the work, and another one or two to clamp that working holding handscrew to the bench. Certainly not as quick and convienent has a face vise, but nonetheless still quite doable, and rather simple.

Just my errant thoughts and ramblings on the subject.

T.O.

But if you're making jigs and fixtures

Bill Houghton, Sebastopol, CA

>it seems like you're mounting a vise on the bench - just that you're mounting it each time you use it, rather than having it there.

Re: But if you're making jigs and fixtures

Michael Recchione

>That's true, Bill. But you've seen some benches folks have either built or talked about building, agonizing about how they were going to fit every kind of vise known to mankind on the bench. This scheme lets you have different types of workholding devices when you need them. I tried it for a small bench, which, because it was small and had to do everything, needed to be very versatile. This was a good accomodation. But this bench does have a face vise - I wouldn't give that up, I don't think.

Re: dovetailing on a virtuous bench

Michael Recchione

>It still seems to come down to "I could do very well without one" or "I could get by without one". For tail vises, I've heard the arguments "It's really hard to get them to work right", "They bend the wood because of the tension", "They get in the way of using the right end of the bench for sawing", etc. But I haven't heard anyone say anything BAD about a face vise, only that they could do without it if they had to.