>When I built my bench I used plans from Lee Valley for the "Modern Bench Plan".It uses two metal "front vises",one for the left front and one as an end vise.When people say "don't build til you know what kind of work you're going to do",they're right on.Since I built mine I've removed the tool tray on the end and I hardly ever use the end vise. I hate it.It's clumsy to use and almost useless to me.
I got a couple wooden screws and I want to retrofit them into my bench.My plan is to shorten the stretchers and build a tail vise on the right side end.The other screw will be another day. I'm contemplating an older style front vise using that wooden screw. Either that or a leg vise. Another day though.
So,I need some input on my tail vise plan before I do surgery to my bench. I don't need to do sawing off the right end of the bench and I have used a tail vise and find them quite useful. All comments are welcome.
>I wound't do any surgury. I would add on a new front edge - 4-5" thick and build into the new front dog holes and a shoulder vise. This way you can leave the stretchers alone.
>I have benches with both a tail vise and a vise like yours. As a tail vise, the tail vise is probably superior, but overall the LV style double screw tail vise is also very good. What you have there is going to rack on you. If you replaced it with LV operating hardware, it seems to me you would gain a bunch of advantage:
- No reduction in clamping capacity, full length of dogs possible.
- No butchering of current table or base
- Retain base footprint
- End vise capacity to dovetailing between the screws, Stoped palong on both sides, and racjk free vise operation.
- Odd shape piece clamping.
Probably others.
I occurs to me that it might be possible to use the two vise hardware kits on the tail vise, instead of buying the LV kit. If you have two screws then you can control rack, they just won't be linked with a sproket. Of course, before LV, people used to rig their own sprokets.
If you want to proceed with your existing plan, why not look at something like the Klausz bench, Frid bench, etc... then just look at your current bench as a stack of lumber. Your legs and stretchers should be useable, and you can probably disect your current top to some advantage. Keep in mind that classic benches may need to be bigger to have the same work holding size.
Or if you have ample space, build a second bench. Most workshops need more than one table to be efficient, and also different heights, no reason why they shouldn't be benches.
I have to second the opinion that the tail vise would clearly rack immensely... but you don't need me to opine what you already know from experience. There is such a thing as a decent tail vise, but not built that way.
On the one hand, My gut instinct is to recommend the Veritas twin screw vise for the following reasons:
-It's actually designed to be used as a tail vise, and would function better in that capacity... particularly since it's designed to NOT rack.
-You already have the basic setup in place, it would be a (sort of) simple operation to replace the vise hardware that you have.
-It's actually a nice vise, once it's installed.
On the other hand, if this tail vise was their design, and they really thought it was a good idea, I don't know that I'd want to reward them by buying more of their vise hardware to patch up their own bad idea.* It's odd to me that the same brand name that brought out the Twin screw and Tucker vise would also think this vise design would be workable, even if they'd made the hardware for it themselves. (They didn't) True, Sjoberg does something similar on their benches, but that's a travesty for another day.
I'm going to suggest an alternate route. As you said, there's something to be said for not building before you know how you're going to work. If the vise is really such a hassle, and it's in your way, I'd start by just removing the offending party. If there are holes afterwards, plug them, or cap the end of the bench, and leave it for the time being.
I recently got out of 2 years at North Bennet. Our benches were basically 2' x 6' with a front vise, and nothing else. You may find that it's convenient to have an end that you can work around, and clamp things to, without any vise at all. A few good sized Bessey Tradesman clamps can work wonders when it comes to holding things down to a benchtop, and you may just find that you enjoy working that way.
Or not. At best, the offending party will have been removed, and won't be able to hinder you further. Start by taking the tail vise down, and go back to work for a while. Figure out what you need.
If the tail vise is really a total loss, then feel free to cut new holes in the old parts just to see if another tail vise idea will actually work for you. Maybe try fitting the 2 wooden screws into the the old tail vise, and make your own twin screw. My suggestion on that would be to have the screws farther from the middle than closer. In line with the end of the row of dog holes would be best, but you also need to make sure htey'll clear your legs/stretchers.
Remeber that old rule of woodworking. Measure twice (or three times.) Cut once. Measure up what you really need before you cut those stretchers down and burn up more of your valuable time.
Anyway, that's my 2 cents.
* My apologies to Lee Valley and their people. I do own and use, and even enjoy some of the things that I've bought there, including the twin screw vise. Good products deserve honest reviews, and the twin screw gizmo is a good product. But bad products deserve the same. After spending the money, and then spending the time, it's just cruel to not have the whole bench function as it ought to.
While I do agree that the vise design aspect of the LV plan is absolute and total crap, I wanted to point out that the bench you have is actually a pretty nice bench. Vises are a very small part of the whole, and (THANKFULLY!!!) they're not hard to swap out. They're the only moving parts on the bench, but the bench itself does a lot of work on its own. I started to go on a rant above about how unacceptable it was to print up a plan with such clear flaws in the vises... and I editied it out of that last post, becuase at the end of the day, the rest of what you built looks like a VERY solid bench. I've seen (and built, and worked with) lesser benches that relied solely on a cheap taiwanese 7" record wanna-be front vise for work holding, and while they were hideous, they were still actually functional benches. Yours is nicer.
AND you're figuring out what you need. It's a pretty cool thing, actually. It means you're deep enough into doing actual work that you're able to look around and assess what works for you, and what doesn't. Maybe that's not so reassuring, but there are a lot of people who sit at home on the couch with a catalog and dream up all kinds of ideas for benches, and the kind of work they would do, if only they got around to it...
Take heart. You have a very (very!) nice bench there. Vise headaches will pass. The small stuff gets weeded out... that's part of the process.
The good news is the fundamentals are there, and the rest is just details. There are gorgeous vises to build that can consume lots of time if you want them to, and there are others that can almost bolt right on. And there are countless permanent or removable bench fixtures that will help you to make all kinds of other beautiful things, and none of those fixtures have anything to do with a tail vise.
In the meantime, and while you ponder, and make, and sweep up the shavings, you can stare at the blank space where the vise was (once you take it off) and figure out what you really need, what you want, and what you're ready to make happen, if you decide you need a new vise at all.
Maybe you'll get through it, fall in love with chairs, and decide you want to replace the tail vise with a pattern makers vise to make that easier. Or maybe you'll build planes, and need a machinists vise. Or, maybe you'll end up making canoes, build a strongback for your next bench, and you'll realize that the tail end of that old bench is a GREAT place to mount a beer bottle opener! : )
>Interesting thoughts. I don't want to use any more metal gizmos. I have two of Howard Card's wooden screws and I'm going to use them somewhere.I thought about a shoulder vise but I've got my heart set on a tail vise with a wooden screw. So even though noone else seems to think it's a good idea I think I may still go ahead with my plan. I'll post results,comments when I do.Thanks for your comments and opinions.---Jack
>...(and Joel) on this one - I'd add a wide front to it and build from there. Unless I'm not understanding either the problem or your solution. Which is possible...
>Besides the useless end vise I like my bench as it is. Adding to the face would make the bench wider and change the way it works.I want to add a tail vise. Unless when Joel said shoulder vise he meant tail vise.
I'm going to look at adding to the front and see if it will work for me. The reason I want to shorten the stretchers is so I can get clearance for the tail vise guide and support system. There is a rail on top of the legs that is in the way.
>I understood Joel's post to say that if you add enough room for the tail vise to the front, you can leave the stretchers alone. Then later you can easily add the shoulder vise and the 5th leg to support that vise to the front, too.
It shouldn't behave differently, other than from the addition of the tail vise, if you put holes in the addition.
To add the tail vise without adding on the front will be a bit of a mess. First you have to modify the legs/stretchers, then you have to significantly thicken the top.
>That's all true, but if one takes the model of a bench as essentially a beam resting on two trestles, then the front dog area terminating in the vises at both ends, is the main-strength beam, the rest is sorta counter top. To have the beam hanging over the front of the base waiting for a lusty round of mortising doesn't square for me. I want that load-path straight to the ground.
What he has now is a good looking bench with one bad vise application. It could really get a lot worse...
