Widening a notch by a little bit?

Re: Widening a notch by a little bit?

Paul Kierstead

>The equipment method is Side Rebate planes (http://www.lie-nielsen.com/catalog.php?sku=99)

which seem to work adequately on endgrain.

I think the no-new-equipment method is careful chisel work. Two ways to help: (1) Score it to give your chisel a place to rest and keep it clean, (2) Use a block to keep the chisel at 90 degrees, or at least a square to guide the eye.

Re: Widening a notch by a little bit?

Warren in Lancaster, PA

>I would use the scoring method. Use a square and cut deeply with a knife so a wide chisel can rest in the line before you hit it. If the amount to be removed is so little that you cannot score the line, consider planing the other member slightly narrower to fit.

Re: Widening a notch by a little bit?

Jack Guzman from Maine

>The best way I've found to do this is get a sharper chisel ,hold the piece in such a way to get it right in front of me and pare carefully using both hands with a slicing motion.---Jack

Re: Widening a notch by a little bit?

dave brown

>A rasp would make quick work of that.

As would sandpaper glued on a block...

Glenn Madsen near San Francisco

>

a different approach

Bill Tindal, E.TN

>The knotch is too wide or narrow, or alternatively, that which fits into it is too narrow or wide.

Use a plane to made the board fitting into this notch more narrow (remove shavings from edge of board). Ditto for making the fit in the too wide notch tighter. Glue a shaving onto the edge of the board that fits into this notch and plane to fit.

In spite of what others have said I find it very difficult to fit something by removing shavings of end grain unless I can do it with a plane. I have never successfully rasped end grain and kept things square, but that is not to say that someone more skilled would be similarly unsuccessful.

A different approach is the common approach

Dan Moening in warming Sacramento

>Aren't we taught to fit the tenon to the mortise?

Isn't what Bill is suggesting essentially the same thing?

I like this approach and think it would be easiest to ensure a proper fit.

~Dan.

Re: a different approach

Warren in Lancaster, PA

>Bill, I have some sympathy for your remarks here. Sometime around 1979 Ian Kirby wrote about cutting tenon shoulders in Fine Woodworking. His technique, which yielded a very clean joint, involved sawing the shoulder just shy of the line and cutting with a chisel on the endgrain for a precise shoulder. In the next issue a new guy, Frank Klausz, wrote in a letter that this was an extremely difficult method, "and I beg the beginner to avoid it." I don't know if he would have considered me a beginner, but I used the technique for several years.

It is hard to gauge the skills of others on the forum and I (probably everybody} would apologize to Wilbur if I offered something which exceded his skills. But I think many are interested in hearing about skillful techniques. I tried to duplicate Wilbur's situation this evening. On a 3 inch wide piece of cherry, it took 45 seconds to measure, mark, and remove 1/32 of material using the method I described above.

Success, and irony

wilbur

>I knew there was a simple way to address this situation. It's ironic that I used the term "brain block", as it was Paul's suggestion of a block to act as a 90 degree guide that did the trick. As it turns out, I forgot that I had a 90 degree guide block with some sandpaper stuck to it to aid in keeping the block in place. I clamped down a block just a hair off the notch, set my chisel, shaved off a bit of the end grain side of the notch by tapping lightly with a mallet, and was home free after that.

I had thought about trying to narrow the board, but that was going to involve either planing the entire length of the board in question, which I didn't want to do since it was rather long and I spent quite a bit of time getting the board square, or trying to plane the little bit of the board that was around the notch, and I didn't quite trust myself to do that in a way that was not noticeable.

Thanks, all!

Hit the post button too soon

wilbur

>Some other comments to the suggestions offered:

I think that using a rasp/file/sandpaper would have rounded the corners of the notch off, since I basically suck at using those tools.

I think that the reason that just paring the endgrain off was going nowhere for me in this case was due to the fact that I was using white oak. I''ve been able to pare endgrain in softer woods, with poplar probably being the hardest wood I've been successful with this technique. Maybe this is because I pare like a wuss. :@)

As far as fitting the tenon to the mortise, it struck me that due to the interlocking notches (both boards have notches cut in them), both pieces are simultaneously tenons and mortises, which makes it not immediately clear which piece should be altered to improve the fit of the joint.

Warren, I'm still in the beginning stages of woodworking, but I do appreciate suggestions that require a higher level of skill. That will give me something to strive for, or, more likely, I'll be too dumb to figure out that I can't do the technique and blunder my way through anyway. That's how I made my first sliding dovetail -- I thought it just was a really deep dovetail, and banged one out. Then I found out how difficult it was supposed to be, and every one I've made since then has been worse than my first attempt. :@)

Again, thanks to everyone!

Photos in future?

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>Hmmm, well I still don't know what a knotch is, so don't have any help to offer. It would really help us all to help you if you were to include a photo in this situation.

Pam

Re: Widening a notch by a little bit?

Stephen Shepherd in the State of Deseret

>Wilbur,

Congradulations on mission accomplished. There were some interesting responses. At one time I would have thought rasps would have been out of the question for this application until I aquired a couple of good cabinet rasps (#49&50). Also a float would handle the end grain.

If you do a lot of this type of joinery you should consider a dedicated plane. Either a side rabbet plane or a T-rabbet plane easily widen a notch, dado or groove.

Stephen

yes but......

Bill Tindal, E.TN

>I would agree that if the tolerance one wants is +/- 1/32 it can be easily done as you describe. But, I have measured, for my curiosity, and a well fit M&T joint is +/- 0.005" or less depending on hardness of the wood, a far cry from 1/32. I would find it vastly easier to get the good fit by planing an edge.

The value of the Forum is to get different responses from persons of different skills and temperament. Knowing that it CAN be done I may someday be encouraged to try your way again.

Re: yes but......

Paul Kierstead

>Removing 1/32" is not the same as +- 1/32"; I think you might be misreading it.

With a chisel and a knife you can get an extremely tight fit (well in excess of 1/32" accuracy) without too much fuss.

If it's pictures you want, pictures you get!

wilbur

>Looking back, I probably should have just posted pictures, but I was at work when I started this thread, and I didn't photograph the problem I was having that night.

Here are some pictures of another notched joint on the same project I had to fix.

Here are the notches in the wood as I cut them. As you can tell, I'm in need of a real workbench.

If I try to fit the joint together, it doesn't fit very well, due to my awesome lack of sawing skills. By the way, you might notice that the left side of the notch on the large board does not match up well with the marking line. That's not due to my crappy sawing technique. It is completely due to my crappy marking technique. The mark on the left side of the notch on the smaller piece is due to my crappy sawing technique.

So, I clamp a guide block as close to the edge as possible. This guide block has some sandpaper attached to the top and bottom face.

I positioned the chisel against the block...

...chop away using light blows with a chisel hammer, and get little tiny endgrain shavings. Luckily, a micrometer that I bought on eBay just arrived today, so I can tell you that these shavings are about 0.010-0.020" thick, in the 1/64" range.

Success!

Thanks, Wilbur

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>Now I understand. I think it would be easier to plane the piece that's too large than to pare the piece that's too small, next time it happens, of course.

Pam

Re: Thanks, Wilbur

wilbur

>I found that one advantage of trying to pare the side of the notch is that it really cleans up the side so that part of the joint is much more flat and square than it used to be.

I should also practice planing the middle of a board as well.

One last question

wilbur

>Does anyone know the real name for this type of joint?

Re: One last question

mikew

>Hi Wilbur,

It is a lap joint. The actual notches of which can be called various things.

One of the books I recommend to others regarding types of joints and various way of making them, is Terrie Noll's excellent book, The Joint Book.

Hardcover but with a spiral binding makes it lay flat on one's bench. I cannot recommend this book enough.

Take care, Mike

Re: Thanks, Wilbur

mikew

>Hi Wilbur,

fwiw, I think you did the correct operation--cleaning the intersection of the lap joints. Then, once cleaned up and square, if they didn't fit I would recommend planing the intersecting board[s] to fit. Better that than risking messing up a squared joint.

Take care, Mike

Re: One last question

Stephen Shepherd in the State of Deseret

>That particular joint because it occurs in the middle and crosses, is a 'cross lap joint'. I have seen it referred to as a saddle joint as well.

Stephen

Re: Thanks, Wilbur

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>Yes, Mike, I thought the cut was square to start with but needed trimming.

Pam