Roubo Bench a year or so later

Re: Roubo Bench a year or so later

Dean J in MN

>Mike --

After more than 2 years working on my French bench I'd be the first to say I'm not giving it up any time soon. In fact, I think it takes a year or so to start to see the capability of the bench. Or perhaps it takes that time to listen to what the bench is whispering to you all along. Turns out mine was telling me to lower it for the first year. Broke down and cut 2 inches off the legs and a year later I've not regretted it. The bench works for my style of work and the projects I build. Your work habits may or may not differ enough to make the bench frustrating. The Roubo bench is one of many suitable benches for hand work, and everyone will have their favorites.

Having said that, I think the english bench Chris S. has been writing about is worth a long look as well.

-Dean

Re: Roubo Bench a year or so later

Michael Recchione

>Dean,

Thanks for your response. I was just checking out Adam's blog at PW, and saw that the Nicholson Bench has been generating a lot of interest lately. I think you've been around long enough to have witnessed the oddyssey of bench fashion over the last 8 years or so. For a while, everybody was building German benches. Then it was Shaker. Then a very short run of Nicholson followed very quickly by Roubo. And now back to Nicholson.

I worked for years on a never-fashionable bench based on the Sam Adams' "Joiner's Bench" - a simple design with a face vise made from the Eastern European large bench vise hardware and an end vise made from a small quick-release metal vise. This bench, like any other, required getting used to. I learned a lot from it, and after a year or so of using it, we were one. Maybe that's true of any bench.

I found that I was working more and more "Roubo-like" on that bench, though. I was using the end vise less and less (maybe because it sags and is a pain to use), using battens and stops held to the top with holdfasts or clamps. And I worked around the face vise racking problems by keeping a family of shims on the bench, to match whatever stock I was working. So I've been inclined to want to try the Roubo bench since it seemed to be the direction I was headed.

But it's a serious commitment to minimalism :-). I just wanted to check if people who made that commitment regretted it after a while. I remember Adam was a leading proponent of the Roubo-style (as was Chris). I curious about why the switch to the English bench. Other than being able to build a cheaper bench, what do you gain?

Fellow Floyd Survivor!

Dominic Greco in Richboro PA

>Mike,

You wrote:

"Some old timers here may remember that the way I first got into woodworking was that my basement flooded during Hurricane Floyd about 8 years ago, and in the process of trying to restore a bunch of my grandfather's tools that I had inherited I got bitten the neanderthal bug, built my bench, set up my shop in the basement, amassed a whole bunch of other tools, yada-yada."

While I cannot offer much insight into the Roubo bench, I wanted to drop you a line. I guess you could say I remember that storm pretty well! :>) My shop was also trashed in Hurricane Floyd. I wrote an article for Wood Central on the restoration of my power tools. While the skills I picked up during that restoration were based upon refurbing power tools, many of them were put to use once I started restoring my rapidly growing hand plane collection.

I remember the devastation to this day. I still get freaked out when it rains very heavy. I used to live in Langhorne, right off of Bridgetown Pike. When FEMA offered to buy us and several of our neighbors out, we jumped at the chance. After going though the hassle of restoring my tools after one flood, I can really understand you moving your shop up to the garage!

Good luck building your new bench! If you need a pre-made butcher block top, I know of a source near Pottstown PA (Bally Block) that sells butcher block maple counter tops "seconds" (some dark grain present!) from 1 1/2" to 3" thick, for fraction of what they would cost new. I bought the 26" x 7' x 2" thick top I used for my workbench for $50.

See ya around,

Dominic

Re: Roubo Bench a year or so later

Dean J in MN

>But it's a serious commitment to minimalism :-). I just wanted to check if people who made that commitment regretted it after a while. I remember Adam was a leading proponent of the Roubo-style (as was Chris). I curious about why the switch to the English bench. Other than being able to build a cheaper bench, what do you gain?

I think you hit one of the points -- cheaper (and I say simpler) to build. A true Roubo is timber framed and had a soild hunk of a tree for a top. My bench is a not a true copy of Roubo, Chris' is much truer to the original. So, I've been calling my bench a French bench.

As for the English bench, I would still see working against a plane stop and battens as I do now. So as far as the function of day to day use I see little difference aside from the deep front apron. I, unlike some other Roubo fans, don't often use clamps on the front edge of my bench. I wouldn't find the deep apron a drawback. In fact, it would nicely replace my deadman. I probably would miss my crochet, but I think I'd use pegs/holdfasts on the front apron and the face vise's screw as my edge plane stop, much as I use my crochet today. Chris/Adam -- do you actually clamp your edge work, or just push against the vise's screw turning the vise into a crochet more or less?

So, I guess I don't see the Roubo/French/English as a fashion trend cycle, they really all work in similar ways. Once you add a tail vise or a shoulder vise you are looking at a different animal.

-Dean

Re: Roubo Bench a year or so later

John Hoffman

>Chris wrote the definitive book on workbenches that has the Roubo, German and English benches in it along with detailed analysis on how to use a bench to clamp wood. The book will be out early this Fall and answers the important issue of how to clamp wood so it can be worked on it's end, face and side. If you could hold off building one until then you will be able to make a good decision based on the work you do and how best to work the wood.

Regards

JH

Re: Fellow Floyd Survivor!

Michael Recchione

>Floyd was a real mess for us. Our basement was used mostly for storage at that time, so we had tons of stuff down there. I had always wanted a woodworking shop, but until then I thought that meant a lot of power tools, dust collection gear, etc - so I never got around to it. What I did have was my grandfather's chest - just stored down there. The cleanup took about 3 weeks, and that was one of the last things I opened. When I did, I was sick - what a mess of rust that was. I had been very close to him, and this was one of the few things I had to remember him by. I started reading about restoring tools on the internet, found my way to ThePorch, and discovered that you could do real woodworking without electricity. That's when I started setting up shop. Pretty crazy when you think about it - lose the contents of your basement to a flood, and immediately start filling the space up with other stuff that's real hard to move and doesn't like to get wet. I planned the whole shop around the 40" guideline - all tool storage had to be at least that high, and anything lower had to be easy to move. That strategy actually worked when we flooded a couple of weeks ago - we only got about 28" this time, but I didn't lose a single tool or anything else of value (unless you consider the washer, dryer, furnace and hot water heater things of value :-) - definitely not in the same league as a plane or chisel..)

Besides the tools, I had 3 guitars, 2 fiddles, a keyboard, a mandolin, a bass, an accordion, 5 amplifiers, a bunch of flutes, whistles, recorders and hand drums, several computers and a whole bunch of recording equipment down there, but it was all set up for the quick grab. With the kids and me working, we got everything out before the water was a couple of inches deep. It was still a mess, though, and I realized as I was cleaning up that the space had become so cluttered that I really wasn't doing much with it anymore -I had to spend 15-20 minutes just clearing stuff out of the way before I could start doing anything anymore, and most of the time I would just not bother.

The resolve now is to pare down to the essentials and put the rest away - maybe sell it. I gathered old rust at garage sales and flea markets for several years, have all sorts of things I've never used or have more than doubles of. Eventually, you can be suffocated by the weight of your own possessions. I'm going to try to lose the "let me keep that just in case I need it someday" mentality, and adopt more of the "if I need one of those things someday, I'll buy it. In the meantime, I'll sell it and use the money to get something I need NOW." We'll see how it works out.

Re: Roubo Bench a year or so later

Michael Recchione

>Sounds like that will be one interesting book. I loved the Landis book, but always found that it fell just short - it sort of gave the flavor without a lot of substance.

Holding out for Chris's book should be no problem - I have a bunch of things to do in order to set up the new shop before I get around to a new bench. Especially since the old bench still works.

One thing I have learned over the years is that paralysis by analysis rarely pays off - there is no such thing as the perfect anything, particularly since the objective is a moving target.

New Workbench book soon

John Hoffman

>You hit the nail on the head. In Chris Schwarz's book that point is made. There is more then one way to secure a board to work on it. Wether to build the roubo, Nicholson or Hotzeppel bench depends on personal preference and how you work. The difference with this new book is that it shows the critical features of a bench that will assist your work.

Regards

JH

Re: Roubo Bench a year or so later

Wendell @ Murphy, Tx

>In the mean time, there is an article in the latest Popular Woodworking by Chris about what he considers the 10 most important features of a workbench. It's a pretty good read.

Wendell

The thing about benches

Michael Recchione

>I stopped all my magazine subscriptions about a year ago - I never can bring myself to throw them out, and they take up too much space. I'll have to treat myself to a latte at the local B&N and sit and read the issue. I'd be interested in Chris's observations, though I've probably got my own "top 10 list" as well.

But the thing about benches is that they're big. I've worked on one bench for 8 years or so, and for a while there, it had become an extension of my body. We're kind of like an old married couple now - we've learned to work around one another's quirks, and it's shaped the way I do woodworking. In some ways, the reason that I've been moving to more of a "French" style of woodworking is that my bench has flaws that I've learned to work around. In particular, my end vise really stinks. Maybe I'd feel completely differently obout bench designs if that vise had worked better.

It would be really nice if you could just kind of "date" a bench for a while, without marrying it. I'd love to be able to work on a German style bench for a while, then move on to a Shaker bench, then try a Roubo, ..., and so on. But other than being able to spend an hour or two on a bench in someone else's shop or in a class or something, the only way to really get to know a bench is to build it and live with it for a while. And they're big.

IMHO, its about tail vises

Adam Cherubini

>Hi Mike,

Just for clarification, the only functional difference I see between the German bench and the French bench is the inclusion of a tail vise. So I�m reading your question as whether or not you should make a tail vise.

My view is that the tail vise is really not a huge advantage in facing stock for furniture. My chief complaint with it is that it gets in the way of sawing. Its also expensive, requires a thick top (I mean the steel kits now, not the all wooden version), and is difficult to build. It can be slower to use as well and really requires multiple dog holes for planing stops (which can be a pain). (I�m using a semi permanent planing stop, at present.)

On the up side, I use my tail vise frequently for irregular and extrordinary things- like when I'm making saw handles. I feel it really shines in the holding of irregular, or smalll things. The question one must answer is whether a bench should be designed around this sort of work. You can't have it all or do it all without compromise.

For me, there�s a bigger distinction between the French and German benches and the English bench. My advise is, if you have the stock, and the woodworking skills (and I know you do) and don�t intend to move your bench frequently, then build a French style bench.

If you are limited to home center stock, don�t have a lot of tools or skills or time, and need a portable bench, the English bench holds all the cards. In its pure form, I find it restrictive to the point that I think we are missing something about how to use it.

I'm looking forward to reading Chris' book too.

Adam

I'd like that;

Paul Kierstead

>A bench dating service. If the benches are willing and plentiful, we wouldn't really need a match-making service even, we could just date them all.

Mind you, the lack of commitment in the relationship would change our attitudes towards the bench, making us more likely to condemn the bench instead of changing ourselves to accommodate the bench.

Re: I'd like that;

Michael Recchione

>You have a point, but perhaps more awareness up-front, before making that commitment to the bench would result in fewer tragic stories down the road. Yes, today you try to accomodate yourself to your bench. But most of us enter into these commitments before we really understand what we need and where we're going. And then you find yourself in a shipwreck 8 years down the road, and the ones that really suffer are the poor vises and other fixtures, who inevitably become pawns in an ugly custody battle.

It's a tough call.

Re: IMHO, its about tail vises

Michael Recchione

>Hi Adam - it's been a while! It's about tail vises, but it's also about legs flush with the face and the style of face vise and how you use the front face of the bench. I'm pretty sure I'd never want a German-style shoulder vise. I'm also pretty sure I like the idea of legs flush with the front of the bench, with holes that I could stick pegs or holdfasts into. I like the sliding deadman, flush with the front face. I'm not as sold on the crochet. I do like the leg vise, mostly because it gives me more depth right over the screw than some other vise designs. I do like the idea of the front vise being removable, as well as the idea of being able to switch between a leg vise, a twin screw vise and maybe a crochet. (The more I think about it, the more I'm sold on Chris's bench. Maybe now that he's done with it, he'd be willing to part with it ... :-) ).

I'm pretty sure I wouldn't want the English bench. I saw your blog entries with the force arrows, and having to worry about all that seems like it would be a real pain if you're working with less than well-behaved stuff - I often find myself changing planing directions around a tricky spot on the face of a board. I'm also not sure what value those aprons really add relative to what they subtract.

Re: IMHO, its about tail vises

Adam Cherubini

>One problem we've had trouble escaping is that many of the proponents of these different workbenches don't actually work wood by hand. That's one reason I've preferred to look back at the benches used by pros who only worked by hand.

In my mind, Roubo defines the quintessential French and German benches. The German bench has flush legs, and two legs vises- one sliding. Roubo has detailed pictures of the bench's tail vise. The top has both a row of dog holes in the front and a set of staggered holdfast holes at the rear. The Scandanavian shoulder vise is not included in this bench.

So what I'm saying is that the German bench and French bench are very similar. The obvious difference being the vises, especially the tail vise. I think the big decision is whether or not to include the tail vise.

Adam

Re: IMHO, its about tail vises

Frank D. in Montreal

>Hi Adam,

Just a little historical note, Roubo actually says that the "German-style bench", probably invented by German cabinetmakers outside of Germany, is a cabinetmaker's bench. The bench with no vise is a joiner's bench. Roubo has trouble understanding why joiners work with no vise, although he says it's probably due to the (large) size of the pieces they work (with). So the two benches would not necessarily be used for the same purpose by the same people (as opposed to the idea that the two benches were used by cabinetmakers of different nations).

I realize that this has no real bearing on the discussion at hand.

Frank

makes me wonder what we're talking about...

Bruce, a MN Galoot

>

Nomenclature & stuff

Michael Recchione

>I see I was messing up here on the nomenclature. I was referring to the Scandinavian bench as a German bench. (To us Mediterranean types, all that stuff North of the Alps is more or less the same - kind of like everything West of the Hudson to New Yorkers.)

I'm definitely not into the "no vises" bench - I want a vise on the left front face, maybe even a choice of vises as I said in a previous post. I think a cross between the "Roubo" bench Chris made and the bench on the front cover of the paperback version of Landis' The Workbench Book is what I'm really leaning towards.

I have another, smaller bench that will be dedicated to carving. It's higher, and has only a metal face vise offset from the front face, but I made a bunch of fixtures that get clamped into that vise to do the kinds of things you were talking about - shaping handles, holding weird shaped stuff for carving, etc. (Actually it's not higher yet - it will be sitting on blocks in the new shop to raise it.) The big bench will just be for furniture making, including stock preparation by hand - I still don't have the space or desire for those machines.

I did find that an end vise got in the way, so I'm really inclined to skip it. For those times when I need work held really fast for face work, I intend to borrow a technique I use a lot to hold panels for relief carving, i.e. using wedges to hold the work between a stop and a batten. Or, if I really cave, I can get a wonder dog. But I've done without that on my carving bench for years now - the wedges hold the work firmly and let you attack it from any angle with no worries.

Re: IMHO, its about tail vises

Adam Cherubini

>Frank,

I disagree, I think what you've written is a very important or the most importnat aspect to this conversation (and something I didn't know). Nicholson was also a joiner and not a cabinetmaker. There are a few paintings of Nicholson benches and they are all joineries, not cabinetshops.

Now I'm not sure why the tail vise is necessary in a cabinet shop. I'm not sure what function it offers that one cannot do otherwise or what jobs cabinetmakers have that joiners don't that this particular feature serves.

I'm really looking forward to Chris' take on all this. I think there's a lot to this subject. The workbench really is the heart of the hand tool shop and imho deserves our attention.

Thanks Frank

Adam

Re: IMHO, its about tail vises

Frank D. in Montreal

>Now I'm not sure why the tail vise is necessary in a cabinet shop. I'm not sure what function it offers that one cannot do otherwise or what jobs cabinetmakers have that joiners don't that this particular feature serves.

Hi Adam,

I'll just translate (quickly done) from Sect. II S.I ("Le Menuisier �b�niste"):

"Since cabinetmakers ("�b�nistes") make a lot of small Pieces, they have to take more precautions while making them than other kinds of woodwork; that's why a more practical style of bench than those [sic] usually used were designed.

"This bench, represented in fig. 1, called the German-style bench..."

So Roubo, as I understand him, thinks that the small, delicate pieces justify the vise.

Re: IMHO, its about tail vises

Joel

>I have started to use by tail vise for doing blind dovetails. I saw this in a tage frid video and gave it a shot. It makes the process trivial. I clamp the draw sides in a tailvise at a 45 and saw comfortably. with the work at a 45 I can easily see top and side of the joint - so I am more accurate, much faster, and less stressed. Reason enough for a tail vise for a cabinetmaker if you ask me.

I have 3 benches in my shop...

Stephen Shepherd in the State of Deseret

>two are left hand versions of northern European benches, cumbersome and I have them set up for kids to plane boards, but I seldom use them.

I have a joyner's bench with no permanent vice. I do have a wooden patternmakers vice that is attached with a wooden bolt through any holdfast hold on the top, apron or legs on the bench. Jamb cleats and dogs with wedges hold my work.

I probably use my holdfasts as much as any clamping device in my shop, simple no working (moving) parts.

I have made a number of benches including a few with tool trays, but I consider them wasted bench top space. They just aquire too much crap and reduce usable bench top surfaces. The flat surfaces accumulate enough crap as it is.

In conjunction with your new work bench make sure you have enough space to store your tools or your work bench will end up looking like mine.

Stephen

Re: I have 3 benches in my shop...

Michael Recchione

>Stephen, I remember on your old site, you advocated a version of the English bench. Is that what you still mostly use?

I hear you on the tool storage. I have plenty of tool storage space in my current shop (the one I'm moving out of). Unfortunately, the benchtop still usually was covered with tools when I was working on something. I think the key is to have the important tools right in front of you (or on a shelf under the bench). Otherwise they still seem to wind up on top of the bench. That's why my next bench will be against a wall. I completely agree on the tool tray - I don't understand the appeal.

Nowadays my bench is covered with patch cords, sheet music and a violin most of the time. I need to separate my passions ... :-)

Re: Roubo Bench a year or so later

Christopher Schwarz

>Michael,

I'll try to boil down my opinion here without writing a book.

1. I won't give up my French bench. If I had to have only one bench for my work, it would be that one. Or the Holtzapffel � a French and German variant that lives in London.

2. The difference between joiners and cabinetmaker's benches is *mostly* workholding. Both joiners and cabinetmakers had quite similar toolkits (check Nicholson, Moxon et al). The operations were also similar (joiners needed to dovetail, too, according to Nicholson). Joiners had larger workpieces with lots of mortise-and-tenon work. Cabinetmakers had smaller work and more dovetailing and panels. We, as moderns, can shlep with either form. Well, I know I can.

3. End vises: They make some things easier. Panel work, for example. I shoot edges with them. I stick moulding. Cut rabbets. Mostly, they seem to replace all the appliances that come with Englishness. They are one expensive and fussy gizmo that replaces many simpler gizmos. For me, they are not the defining element of any bench. A bench's bones and framework are far more important.

4. English benches: I like them more than I thought I would. The wide apron is a great asset when planing for long periods. It's weird, but I work with my hip in constant contact with the bench. It provides tremendous support to my body and feedback to my work. Sorry if that sounds like something from a yoga instructor.

5. Finally, Patrick Edwards said something brilliant: "Form follows process." Your bench should follow the processes you use. Do you dovetail everything? Consider a twin screw. Do you tenon everything? Consider a leg vise. Are you a plane-a-holic? Consider your benchtop workholding: planing stop(s) vs. an end vise. Do you shoot edges of doors and panels? Think about that wide front apron.

And consider this: Most bench forms today are also the result of process. The manufacturing process. Make it in a factory; ship it flat.

Chris