Hide glue for panel glue-up

Re: Hide glue for panel glue-up

jeff

>Andy

I've heard that the bottled hyde glue leaves a line and the real liquid stuff doesn't.

Jeff in Vermont

Why

bill tindal, E.TN

>an honest question. I can at least understand the argument for using hide glue for something that will need to be taken apart some time in it's future, though I don't personally accept this argument. And its working time for a difficult assembly is certainly valid. But, why would one want to use it on a panel glue up? I can't think of an advantage.

Re: Hide glue for panel glue-up

VTAndy4

>Jeff,

What is the "real" liquid stuff? My understanding is that the "real" stuff is dry.

I'll email you off-list about local matters! ;)

-Andy

Re: Why

VTAndy4

>Bill,

I'm a beginner, and I hate making mistakes that can't be undone. Hide glue allows me to take a Mulligan!!! Anyhow, the main reason is the longer time I have to fumble around, locate clamps that I forgot to set out, take incoming calls (well, just kidding there), etc.

-Andy

Re: Why

John in New Mexico

>I've only tried hot hide glue, but even with the premix, I'm not sure you'll have more open time than tightbond. With hot hide glue you don't have much at all.

The only advantage I can come up with in this case is that I've noticed that hide glue doesn't resist oil finishes as much as PVA's. Never tried it with stain though.

John

Hide glue + rubbed joint = no visible glue line

David Barnett - SW Florida

>

Re: Why

Paul Kierstead

>Because clamps are not required. You can do an amazing amount of panel glue-ups in a short period of time.

Note that this refers to hot hide glue, which as *extremely* little open time; I have not had any experience with the cold sort.

Beyond that, why not use it?

Cool!

John in New Mexico

>No pun intended. I always forget you can do that with hide glue.

Re: Hide glue for panel glue-up

mikew

>Like David Barnett says, a rub joint will show very little: at least no more than other glues for a given quality of joint.

If you are using liquid hide glue, have a warm--not hot--pan of water to allow the liquid hide glue to thin via the warm. Once warm, I usually set the container of water on one of those oil-filled heaters which is warmed up to keep the water from cooling. Keeps the glue a bit more liquid.

I don't know if this affects the glue in the long term [warming and cooling cycles]. But I generally use it up fairly quickly and have not noticed an adhesion problem ever.

Take care, Mike

Thanks for all the responses!

VTAndy4

>

incomming calls

bill tindal, E.TN

>It has become a joke around here. Every time I spread glue the phone rings for me. If they are woodworkers wife says "he's gluing" and they understand.

Use hot hide glue

Jim in N.Va.

>I use hot hide glue all the time for making panels. Among its many advantages is that it shrinks as it drys, pulling the boards tighter together and making an invisible glue line. The two keys are to (1) make sure the glue is not too thick (otherwise it will gell and make and leave a glue line) and (2) heat the joint with a hot air gun or hair dryer.

I've used cold hide glue to good effect on tenons, etc. when I wanted a longer open time. I have not tried it for panels.

Re: Hide glue for panel glue-up

jeff

>Andy

The real stuff I was referring to is flakes.

I grind it up to a fine powder and desolve it in water.

Homestead finishing is a good source for it.

You do need either a glue pot or a double boiler to keep it warm.

It can be stored in the fridge after mixing for a while.

Jeff

Paul, are you saying...

VTAndy4

>... that you can do a panel glue-up without clamping? Can you explain, or is it just that simple? It's sounds too good to be true!

-Andy

Re: Hide glue for panel glue-up

Peter Galbert

>I am a huge advocate for hide glue, I use it on my chairs and love its advantages. But I have to question the choice for a table top. I would seriously consider the vulnrability of hide glue to heat and moisture. This is one condition where hide glue is liable to fail. If a drink spills or the table is consistently wiped down, the glue will possibly weaken. In the joint you are talking about, the glue IS the joint, with this in mind, you might rethink using a water resistant glue and find other ways to reduce the glueline, or of course use a very water resistant finish. I know that Eugene Thordahl has info on making hide glue water resistant, google him if you want to persue the info. Good luck

Re: Paul, are you saying...

Paul Kierstead

>You sure can. You just do it using rub joints. With hot hide glue, they will grab quite well. You can do it a board at a time, or 2-2-4 kind of pattern. The real basic procedure is joint the boards, put on some hide glue (thin as someone else mentioned) and rub the joints togather. A couple of quick rubs and they will stick to each other quite well. It is best if the two boards are ever so slightly concave and absolutely crucial they are not convex (open at the ends) at all. This actually works with PVA in that the boards will stick together (basically hydraulic action), but the glue will not be strong without some clamping pressure.

Re: Hide glue for panel glue-up

Adam Cherubini

>Andy,

I have the same problems with hide glue in long joints.

I don't think you can use a spring joint. I think high clamp pressure will cause the glue to extrude out. I've had this experience. You might want to consider running right down the center of each board with your try plane to create a little hollow to retain the glue. Then maybe you could use a spring joint. Maybe.

But honest injun, I don't use hide glue for this application and I don't know, short of urea and heating the boards, how they did this in the old days. And keep in mind, the old days were only 50 years ago or so.

IMHO, not being able to do a spring joint is the reason not to use hide glue here. You'll never have to disassemble this joint. Its fundamentally unlike other joints.

That said, don't let me talk you out of it. Work out the bugs then report back.

Adam

Re: Hide glue for panel glue-up

Paul Kierstead

>i've heard you say this a few times, Adam, and it really surprises me. I have done it a fair bit and I am far from a master craftsman. Now clearly if you do spring the joint, it is *very* slight; I mostly just err on the spring side since a convex joint is death (it is reaaaal obvious when that happens). I dunno. You plane carefully (usually match), rub them and they stick quite well. I often lay them down on some wax paper on a flat surface. It is pretty important that your stock is very flat on at least one side since you can't tweak things with a hammer as you might do when they are in the clamps. Maybe I have been lucky, or am not demanding enough in the quality of my joints. I'll note I mostly use cherry which tends to match the color of hide glue nicely, so that might give me more leeway.

Oh... I should say...

Paul Kierstead

>I should note that I have never tried this for a long panel; mostly in the 24"-30" range. A long panel (such as a dining room table) would be very very difficult as keeping the boards aligned would be a total ***** as you are very unlikely to get them (and keep them) flat enough. Splines might help, but complicated glue-ups (even a spline) are no friend of hide glue, as I imagine you might know :)

Hey Dave, Where you been?

Scott Burr in Ben Lomond CA

>I for one have missed you posting here.

I was thinking the very same thing!!

Wiley Horne--So. Cal.

>