Sargent 424

Re: Sargent 424 *LINK*

Jerry Nicholson

>Check Sargent Adjustable Iron Planes at the link

Jerry


http://www.roseantiquetools.com/id142.html

Re: Sargent 424

Ernie Miller

>I guess you got a nice jointer? from looking at the link. Gloat?

Gloat, and woes...

Denis Ch�nard, Orl�ans, Ont.

>Yup, you can call that a gloat, it's a long story...

I purchased a Stanley #8 Type 11 last fall, then proceeded to order a LN Stanley replacement blade and improved chipbreaker from Rob Cosman. So far so good, except that I didn't get to play with the plane until last month.

When I finally came around to fettle the plane, I found issues that made the plane unuseable. No problem, my dealer offered exchange or refund. When we finally met last night, he couldn't find the other Stanley that he had. While he was looking for it, I spotted on the back a shelf that Sargent, behind a bunch of #7s. I pulled it out and it was in great shape, so I paid a bit extra to get it, no biggie. While there I took the time to check if the Stanley iron/CB fit in the Sargent, so that I could put my replacement LN in. So far so good.

Got home last night, and after putting the kids to bed I went to work on the plane. That's where the problem surfaced...

The slot for the adjuster on the Sargent chipbreaker is located at a different place than the Stanley (or LN). About 1/4" higher. You can see it here:

http://www.famillechenard.com/photos/ww/sargent_then_LN.JPG

The end result is when sitting the blade assembly in the plane, the LN blade sits higher on the frog. In other words, when the original Sargent blade sticks out of the throat, the LN is still a good 1/4" away from coming out. And there's not enough travel on the adjuster to make the LN blade stick out.

As the photo shows, the CB slot is located close enough that I can't just mill a new slot, as it will break into the actual slot.

I could still use the LN assembly, if I set the CB 1/4" or so from the blade tip, but then that wouldn't be much of a chipbreaker, wouldn't it?

If anyone has suggestions, I'm all ears... I'll call LN this afternoon to see what they suggest...

DC

Frustrated in Ottawa

Re: Gloat, and woes...

Joe Rogers, Northern Virginia

>My guess is that Thom L-N will offer to redo the chipbreaker to get enough depth to have it be useable. Probably no charge with the exchange of the non useable breaker. Be suprised if it turns out any different.:-) JR

Another option

jim reed @ tallahassee

>is to drill a round hole above the square one. The adjuster hole does not really need to be square--it just needs to accomodate the adjuster. Square and oversized means that one size will fit all. You can drill a hole the diameter of the adjuster's diagonal.

Chipbreaker

Jerry Nicholson

>One could restart the discussions about whether the function of the chip breaker is to break the chip or to stiffen the blade. Or, if the blade itself is thick enough, just to provide a place for the adjuster to connect. I would suggest (in the absence of actual knowledge, I can suggest anything) that the chip breaking function is operable mainly when taking a thick cut in soft wood with a large mouth opening and that the chip breaker can be backed way off when the mouth is very tight and the blade is heavy. My experience is limited but I have experienced a performance improvement on a 4 1/2 using a LV blade and a Hock cap iron (chip breaker) when I increased the clearance between the blade edge and the cap iron edge. This is with a very tight mouth. I get even better results with my BU planes - no chip breaker at all. Anyone who believes I am crazy is in complete agreement with my wife. And she has over 48 years of evidence to prove it.

Jerry

I agree with your wife

jim reed @ tallahassee

>about the crazy part, but agree with you about the chipbreaker part. I have never in my life seen one *break a chip*. I have seen them stiffen blades and I have seen them grab the adjuster.

Well, I called LN...

Denis Ch�nard, Orl�ans, Ont.

>And I was told that they don't do custom work on the improved chipbreaker. The lady at customer service told me that this isn't the first time she hears about that problem...

So it looks like I'll have to make one myself...

The LN CB is made of A2 steel, probably hardened (to what I don't know, I didn't ask), maybe I'll get a machinist to fill the hole and mill a new one...

Or, I'll use the original Sargent CB, but then I'll feel like I'm short of the plane's optimal performance... And that would drive me nuts :-)

DC

What I did

Frank D. in Montreal

>I wouldn't move the chipbreaker too high because even if it does only stiffen the blade, you want it to do that as close to the cutting edge as possible. I had the exact same problem with a Stanley #8 that had been fitted with a Sargent chipbreaker. I bought the plane in Cacouna (ring a bell?), so I didn't feel likre driving 10 hours to exchange it. I cut a piece of steel so it could squeeze into the slot, then I added some JB Weld epoxy (I patched the hole). Then I just drilled another hole in the CB and filed it square.

Re: Well, I called LN...

Glenn Madsen near San Francisco

>Maybe you want to call Hock Tools? www.hocktools.com

You ought to get to play with that new (to you)handplane a little bit.

Re: What I did

Denis Ch�nard, Orl�ans, Ont.

>I bought the plane in Cacouna (ring a bell?)

No way! You're pulling my leg, right? Where did you get it?

(for those not in the know, that's my hometown, my parents still live there)

I was thinking about something like you suggest, maybe brazing a piece of steel in place and cutting a new hole. I could weld it, I have a $3000+ MIG welder in the garage, but I have no clue as to how to use it (it's my BIL's). Maybe I'll get him to come over...

DC

Going back to Cacouna in a month or so

Well...I'm sure surprised!

Joe Rogers, Northern Virginia

>That isn't the way I envisioned this playing out at all.JR

Re: What I did

Frank D. in Montreal

>Yup,

You know that big antique barn that's open in the summer...I always stop by there, and sometimes I find some nice stuff. Also in the little dumpy place across the street, I've bought a few nice braces etc at good prices. I still kick myself when I think of the anvil I didn't buy last time I stopped in Cacouna.

Re: What I did

Denis Ch�nard, Orl�ans, Ont.

>You know what? That barn, I went there only once in my life, assuming that this was a "tourist thing"... I'll check it out next time I go down there and the barn is open... And I'll look for that anvil :-)

Thnx,

DC

They were nice

Jim Reed @ Tallahassee

>It is a production factory and they are not set up to take in custom work. Even small machine shops charge about $40/hr for drop in work. Specialty work from LN would probably have to carry a much higher charge. Fix it for free and they go out of business; tell you it will cost $90 plus postage and you would probably be irate. To avoid unhappiness, they just say that they do not do that kind of work.

Have you tried ...

Derek Cohen (vacationing in Cape Town)

>... the place with the cap iron backed off? You will not know if it actually works this way until you try it.

My expectation is that a backed off cap iron will not make any difference to the performance of the plane, especially if the mouth is set tight. The thicker blade is stiff enough not to "need" a cap iron. Also, note that I do not call it a "chip breaker" - because I believe that most do not actually do this, and some just get in the way of guiding shavings away from the mouth. As I recall, a Japanese-based research project demonstrated that the cap iron only functions as a chip breaker when it is set .5mm from the bevel edge. I find that pulling it back does not affect performance.

Let us know what you find.

Regards from ... well, Cape Town at present, but back in Perth shortly

Derek

Re: Gloat, and woes... *LINK*

Brent

>The other option is to use the original blade and cap iron.

If the Sargent is an older plane and has an original blade, the blade is probably the equal of any LN O1 steel blade, and while not as durable as the LN A2 blades (you didn't say which you have), it sharpens to a sharper edge (because the LN A2 has to have a larger included angle or will chip out). Initial sharpness is a function of included angle alone, with no difference between different steel types if you use suitable abrasives.

I use long jointers to finish edges - for which I need a sharp blade which just takes a few passes along the edge to produce the final edge for glue up. A few passes, light cuts, planing a 3/4" wide shaving, no chance of chatter, no need for any slight gain from a heavier blade/cap iron system. (Is it possible that these heavier systems only allow poorly tuned planes with dull blades to work, and are not needed on well tuned, sharp tools?)

If you have a 100 year old plane with all the original parts, why not just sharpen the blade and use it as is? A 100 year old machine that works as well as the day it left the factory.

I sure wouldn't tamper with that unless the tool proved to be unusable in its original condition - blade completely used up for example.

Brent

PS Blade test results at the URL below.


Plane Blade testing results pages