Est. 1998 — 27 years of woodworking knowledge
Iron Floats?
Todd O. Cronkhite Maine Native, Presently Away
>Been wanting to make some plane floats, but I don't have any of the mild steel that Tod Herrli talks about. I do however have access to flat iron. Suppose that would work? One way to find out I know, but until my wrist stops killing me so badly my desire to to anything wasteful is pretty low.
Todd O.
Re: If you shape it right!
Jim Toews
>Sorry about that. I could't resist. Actually, I would imagine it would work, but would not stay sharp too long. They used some pretty soft iron, compared to tool steel, for floats back in the 17th/18th centuries. Maybe Adam will weigh in on this. In any case, I'd go for it.
Cheers!
Jim
Re: If you shape it right!
Patrick Gibbons
>I just got the new plane floats that Lie-Nielsen is making last week. They were a delayed Xmas gift from my spouse. LN makes them from S7, I believe, which is a shock-resisting tool steel. They're hardened to 50-52 Rc and can be sharpened with files. Haven't used them yet but will let you know my first impressions once I do. The 'S' group of tool steels are good for battering tools. They hold an edge and take a beating, literally, quite well. I was intrigued by LN's use of this alloy for floats. I'm not sure exactly how the steel's characteristics fit it for use as plane floats. It would be nice to have someone chime in who has more information on this choice of steel.
Re: Iron Floats?
Dave Mount, warmer this morning (-22 F/-30 C)
>Morning Todd--
Having repeatedly demonstrated my lack of metalworking knowledge, my advice is worth what you're paying for it.
I don't remember what was in the Herrli video specifically, but I don't think mild steel is what you want. I'm pretty sure the recommended substrate is tool steel (e.g., 0-1) that is annealed. I believe that annealed tool steel is still significantly harder than grocery store mild steel.
Opinions on whether it's worth hardening the 0-1 after initial shaping vary from what I've seen, but on average seem to suggest that unless you're going to use them intensely, that you can get away without it. It they are hardened, they're tempered relatively soft so they can be resharpened. Clark and Williams' say their floats are tempered to 50 Rockwell. Looking at the charts for O1, it looks like 50 Rockwell is well beyond blue on the tempering color scheme, about 750 F. That might be hard to achieve in a controlled way anyway without specialized equipment. You can certainly spot heat to that color, but to get it as an even heat through a shaped float. . .I'm skeptical that that's something achievable with home workshop tools. Commercial heat treating is an option I suppose, but from what I've heard said about the fixed (batch) costs of doing that, I suspect you'd be better off just buying hardened floats from C&W if hardened floats are what you want.
From what I've heard, filing floats, particularly the side float, is a fair amount of effort -- doesn't sound like a job for a guy with a bum wrist.
Like I said, advice worth what you paid for it. I'm sure others with deeper knowledge will chime in. Since I have the sense you're a scrounger (and I mean that in the most respectful terms), maybe you should try annealing an old file. . .
Let me know how you make out, I already bought some 3/16" by 1" O1 for this purpose but having gotten to it.
Best,
Dave
Re: Iron Floats?
Ernie Miller
>Todd I just used O1 and never hardened it. did he say mild steel? Can't remember if so that then most of what you call flat iron is clod rolled steel I think iron is cast? I'm not real smart about these things though. Why not just give us a try and let us know. If you have the metal and the time you know you won't be happy untill you give it a try.
Re: Iron Floats?
Ernie Miller
>good to know that I am not the only one who thought the side float was a PITA to file I think I am only 3/4 done with it but it still gets the job done. I think Todd is like a kid that is eating sugar cerial and chasing it with an icecycle pop. once he gets after somthing it is all assholes and elbows untill he has it finished. It would be funn if he set up a web cam in his shop. I bet we could get alot of giggles out of that.
Re: Iron Floats?
Todd O. Cronkhite Maine Native, Presently Away
>Am watching that part of the tape now, and all he says is 3/16" steel.
Oops wait! He just said that Mild Steel works, you just need to sharpen it more often!
So, another tidbit of info that I missed the first two times I watched it. Also, I noted during the second viewing that he WAS NOT using a Wagon Vise, but rather a tail vise. Ahhhhhhhhhh well, I still got a Wagon Vise out of this boo-boo and I love it, so nothing lost and all gained on that on that score.
T.O.
No Todd...
Scott Burr in Ben Lomond CA
>Iron sinks. Get a clue!
Just kiddin;^)
HA! That's funny Scott :~)
Todd O. Cronkhite Maine Native, Presently Away
>
Well now,
Bill Houghton, Sebastopol, CA
>doesn't that depend on the medium? Don't know if there's anything of higher molecular density that's liquid at the temps that iron is, but...
Re:Iron floats in mercury
Jim Toews
>
See?
Bill Houghton, Sebastopol, CA
>
Re: Iron Floats?
ThomD
>I thing that they do use mild steel for these things. It's not necesarilly to be considered a pattern makers file, or something like that that could be used all day long. It just the final surfacing tool tool like a scraper. In any case yuo could super quench a float and it would get to 50 points and no tempering would be required. Can't get cheaper and simpler than that.
Explain Super Quench
Todd O. Cronkhite Maine Native, Presently Away
>I have the float done for all practical intents and purposes. I finished it this afternoon. I am not convined that I have the teeth as sharp as they could be tho, which I'll be addressing tomorrow. So, this weekend I'd be ready to try my hand at Super Quenching this Mild Steel float. I have no other source of heat other than a MAPP cylinder and a propane cylinder. Will this be enough?
I'll being going this in my garage with the lights turned off so I can see the colors.
T.O.
Re: Iron Floats?
John Aniano in central NJ...
>Hi Todd,
Just my two cents on this...
I've made a number of floats for working with tough materials like ebony, ivory and the like (for making violin bows) - use an old file as a blank! Hold the tang in a large vise and heat the file with a mapp gas or similar torch as if you were going to anneal the tool, which is what you are going to do. Heat until the color is just a uniform gray, just past the blue stage and the file will be roughly the hardness of a saw blade. Then let it cool down slowly and use what ever means you have to file/grind off the old teeth. Using the methods and techniques usually given for filing ripsaw teeth, hand file in the new float teeth, the more uneven, the better - less harmonic chatter that way.
Over and out,
John
Re: Iron Floats?
Todd O. Cronkhite Maine Native, Presently Away
>John,
I certainly thank you for this tidbit of info, but I think at the moment we are talking about two different things. If I understood correctly Thom was talking about hardening my float.
I've never heard of this gray color in which you speak, is it below the orange color?
I have a small file that Todd threw into his forge for me 4 years ago to soften and he took it up to orange. I have finally decided to make a mini drawknife out of it, as soon as I file another tang on the other end to accept a wooden handle.
I have some wood ashes from the fireplace to use as my "slow cool" agent.
So the question of why didn't I think of using a file to make a float out of arises. Well, I dunno, to obvious perhaps? Thanks for the idea.
T.O.
Re: Super Quench, oxidation colors *LINK*
Dave Mount, still in the deep freeze
>Hey Todd--
I've given a link below to some info on Super Quenching. This is a special quenchant that is supposed to put some extra hardness into mild steel. As it says, it doesn't make mild steel into tool steel, but it is supposed to make mild steel a little harder. No first hand experience, just parroting what I've read. The Super Quench info is down the page a little ways. The anvilfire site is a good place to get metal questions answered if you don't get what you need here.
The softening that Todd did for you and what John is describing are a little different. What Todd did would be annealing, which is heating the metal to it's critical point and then cooling very slowly. This brings the metal to it's softest condition. Once shaped, you'd then re-harden and temper the tool like Herrli describes for plane blades.
If I understand the terminology correctly, what John describes is not really annealing in the truest sense, but really additional tempering to bring the file to a softer (but still somewhat hardened) condition. I made reference to this in an earlier post when I said that 50 Rockwell would require heating to circa 750 F. As you progress through the oxidation colors, grey follows blue, and the grey color John describes is associated with temps in the 750 F range, which gives you something that is harder than annealed, but still soft enough to file. (I'll post a link to an oxidation color/temp/hardness chart for O1). I would have thought this would be hard to do in the workshop with MAPP torches because it would be hard to bring the tool to this temp range evenly through it's thickness. However, John's experience clearly shows that it can be done effectively, and I intend to try it myself.
Have fun with it,
Dave
Super Quench FAQ
Re: Oxidation color chart *LINK*
Dave Mount, still in the deep freeze
>Todd--
Here is another anvilfire link, this one to a detailed oxidation color chart. For the hardnesses for O1, look at the 1095 column. I don't know what files are made of for sure, but they are clearly pretty darn hard, so they must be pretty high carbon, and following the 1095 guidance is probably pretty close.
Best,
Thanks Dave x 2
Todd O. Cronkhite Maine Native, Presently Away
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