Plane sole drag?

Re: Plane sole drag?

Todd O. Cronkhite Maine Native, Presently Away

>Bob,

On the metal plane are the corners (aris?)where the sides and the sole meet sharp? This may not allow you to "skew" the metal one as easily as the wooden sole, and thus you'd have to overcome the "plowing" effect of the sole/edge corner as well as the blade.

Just guessing, but it makes sense to me.

Todd O.

Re: Plane sole drag?

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>Because wood planes are better, very simple. :)

To simulate results in metal, grease the soles. Enough of a hint?

Pam

Re: Plane sole drag?

David Charlesworth

>I like to polish my metal planes on blunt 240 grit W&D and then follow up with metal polish and wire wool.

The may also be a slight residue of Camellia oil, but I don't get troubled by too much drag.

Not disputing that woodies have less!

David

Lignum soles

Jim Reed @ tallahassee

>make planes slippery like a bar of soap. In my opinion, a lignum sole plane is the king of the woodies when it comes to racing across a board.

Re: Plane sole drag?

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>I don't have any problems with drag either, not after making a little Kingshott type oil/felt reservoir. :)

Pam

Rant and Heresy, not aimed at Bob...

Rob Brophy...lost in Niagara

>Can't say that I've noticed that problem, but I'm not a member of the Flat Sole Society...to be honest I just check a new plane for gross warpage/damage/burrs and stick a sharp blade in it. I'm all for futzing with planes as a hobby but I wonder if, and I can hear my family of engineers screaming, these super flat soles are somehow a bad idea? Isn't there an informal competition amongst metalheads to see who can get two pieces of metal scraped and fitted to the closest tolerences? When the two 'flat' pieces are connected they are very difficult to get apart...I suspect this is along the lines of what happens with 'flat' iron planes. Even if you manage to get a woody flat, it ain't gonna be flat tomorrow...perhaps this is why they glide so nicely.

The only time my planes have seen sole wax was at Darrel LaRue's Galoot BBQ a number of years ago (where I suspect my tired old Norris smoother affected Jim Shaver slightly). Wax on planes has always felt like a bad idea to me. The risk of spoiling the finish or weakening a glued joint is too great and I've never been convinced that the reduction in drag is significant using stick wax. Seems to me it would just gum up the works...something lighter like a very thin coat of mineral oil would make more sense if you -had- to have a friction reducer. Or better yet, lightly scrub the sole with a Scotch-brite pad to remove the 'friction causing oxides'(said in best baritone infomercial voice) before use.

I've spent very little time using wooden planes. There are a pile of them in the workshop that get played with occasionally, but in Niagara the humidity swings are so extreme that I haven't had much luck turning one into a reliable worker. Summers here have been compared to standing someone's mouth and winters, well let's just say our two cats passed within four feet of each other and lit the room from the static arc ;-).

Re: Rant and Heresy, not aimed at Bob...

Todd O. Cronkhite Maine Native, Presently Away

>I sure of liked to have seen that Rob, how did they reaction to bein' electric?

T.O.

Re: Plane sole drag?

woodburnbob

>Thanks for the possible answer, Todd. But my planes don't have sharp corners and don't catch on wood. I don't follow your thoughts about 'skew'.

Re: Plane sole drag?

woodburnbob

>Because wood planes are better, very simple. :)

To simulate results in metal, grease the soles. Enough of a hint?

I took the first sentence as a little flippant for a pretty honest and sincere question.

The second sentence is confusing. Is that sentence intended to say: Greasing a metal sole will make it work like a wood sole (implying wood soles have intrisic 'grease'? Or, is it intended to say: Greasing a wood sole will make it work like a metal sole (implying 'grease' attracts dust and dirt, which increase friction?

"Enough of a hint?" came off as somewhat cryptic and off-putting. But I'm sure it wasn't intended. So, to answer that, no.

Re: Plane sole drag?

woodburnbob

>Are you saying, DC, that sanding, polishing and wooling are done to refine sole surface finish and that drag is a function of surface finish? I'm not familiar with the merits of "Camellia", though I saw an expensive little plastic bottle of it at Woodcraft at one time. I don't get the connection between the first sentence and the second, but are you implying oil produces drag as well as rough surface finish of the sole?

I like to polish my metal planes on blunt 240 grit W&D and then follow up with metal polish and wire wool.

The may also be a slight residue of Camellia oil, but I don't get troubled by too much drag.

Not disputing that woodies have less!

David

Re: Plane sole drag?

woodburnbob

>I'm familiar with some of Kingshott's ideas and practices, but not what is implied by a "Kingshott type oil/felt reservoir". You seem to suggest that coating a metal plane sole with a layer of oil reduces friction and is an advisable practice.

Re: Lignum soles

woodburnbob

>No disputing your words, Jim. But I'd be interested to learn you ideas about my original question...as I think of you as a pretty bright guy, and one with a bicameral mind: part metalhead, part woodhead.

Re: Rant and Heresy, not aimed at Bob...

woodburnbob

>I like your response, Rob. I confess I'm a fallen away ex-disciple of the FSS myself, but for different reasons than you offer. Anyway, your conjecture regarding adherence of two smooth surfaces wouldn't be relevant here. Flatness of the two surfaces must be on the order of 1 micron, which is a couple orders of magnitude from what even the priests of scraping can do.

...lightly scrub the sole with a Scotch-brite pad to remove the 'friction causing oxides'...

I couldn't tell if you serious about oxides? If you care to say more, I'll listen.

Re: Plane sole drag?

Joe Rogers, Northern Virginia

>The lubercation of metal plane soles is a long standing practice. The friction modifier can be Camellia oil, a light grease,wax or other thin oil. Most find the residue left on the workpiece to be a non issue when applying the final finish.JR

Re: Rant and Heresy, not aimed at Bob... *LINK*

Rob Brophy...lost in Niagara

>Hey Bob,

Yeah, you're right about the degree of flatness needed to make two metal pieces stick, but I think there is something to the thought of FSS planes being tougher to push.

At the risk of public ridicule, I wonder if the surface of wood is elastic enough to deflect under the weight/force of the FSS smooth plane in action and create some amount of extra friction? I am not an engineer, just a curious profane who might have given this a little too much thought.

Sounds like a good experiment for Derek Cohen :-)

Gotta admit to being serious about giving the plane soles a quick scrub before use. Not enough to do any damage just a couple swipes with one of those red scrubbies (link below) to get rid of the oxides. I don't preach about it, but it seems to work for me. Remember I live in an area with big humidity swings and iron can rust pretty quick...If you live in Arizona it might not be a big deal.


scrubbie stuff

Re: Plane sole drag? coefficient of friction

ThomD

>"Can someone explain why a wood plane sole on a transitional skips endlessly across wood; and, in contrast, a metal sole, no matter how polished, no matter how waxed or sprayed with something, starts out with much higher friction and then increasingly drags?"

Not so sure about the increasingly drags part. But otherwise it's the coefficient of friction, whihc I presume is a measure of the relative friction of certain materials. Some materials like rubber have a higher CE. For instance as those who have allowed their brake pads to wear down will attest, the car will still stop, on the metal underneath the pad. In fact it' so nasty it gauls and creates big rips in the disc. Before cool stop the best brake pads for bikes were sintered metal. It's not so much metal it's the particular material. Bronze is pretty low friction, and I was unhappy when LN stopped bringing out each new model in a bronze version.

One solution is to mill away excess contact surface as is done on both wooden and metal planes.

"I was showing an aquaintaince how different planes worked the other day and we both ended up admiring the efficiency and ease of wood soles."

That's the whole transitional story. What changed (my guess) is that as machines came along to make it possible to make metal planes cheaply, they also made it possible to plane and joint wood by machine. So planes were rapidly relogated to the position of the router today. Something that makes nice shapes and can be cleverly configured to cut some joints. Also a tool for whittling and finishing. It has taken pretty much till today for the Stanley type planes to be produced, in quantity, to the standard that was comon with wood planes throughout. Required the cheap computer.

Two things

Jim Reed @ tallahassee

>First, I am partial to corrugated soles--less contact means less drag. Secondly, I am also partial to shiny bottoms. I polish the beejeebers out of my plane bottoms. They have to shine. That grey patina is nasty and wants to hug the wood. You can tell when to stop polishing because the sandpaper immediately becomes easier to move. A corrugated sole that is highly polished and waxed with J-wax skitters down the board like a hocky puck on hard ice.

Re: Rant and Heresy, not aimed at Bob...

woodburnbob

>...but I think there is something to the thought of FSS planes being tougher to push...

I hadn't heard that before, Rob. It makes perfect sense. As I understand it a major variable in friction is total surface area of contact. All those fast moving curved plane soles out there are no doubt skidding over flat boards like...like...well, like _____ over _____.

I've often thought one of my curvilinear #7s had no more drag than one of my flat #3s.

Indeed, you may have offered the best answer to my original question so far.

Re: Plane sole drag?

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>I suppose it was a bit flippant. Is that bad? I typed a smilie.

Woodies bring their own lubrication, so yes, an intrinsic oil (not sure that grease = oil).

Pam

Re: Plane sole drag?

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>What Joe said. The oil reservoir is simply a little wooden or bamboo "bowl" with felt to hold the oil. It sits on the bench so you can swipe your plane soles over it on occasion.

Pam

Re: Plane sole drag?

Todd O. Cronkhite Maine Native, Presently Away

>what I was getting at Bob, was that when planing a piece of Wood that is wider than the planes sole, than we, or at least I, tend to skew the plane a few degrees, and thus I was thinking that perhaps your arris might be sharp and acting like miniscule cutters themselves and creating a bit more drag for you.

The arris of my LN's are still sharp as I have yet to either purposefully round them, nor use them enough for them to wear to rounded yet, but I haven't noticed any add'l drag, but perhaps you did.

I also have no experiance using wood Soled planes yet either, but I have some and am planning on taking them for a spin shortly.

I guess I missed your meaning in the original question, but by reading the thread I gained a few new thoughts to think on, and to see for myself one way or the other.

In closing, it does stand to reason in my mind that Wood on Wood would slide better, than metal on Wood. Why? Various reasons. Wood on Wood= similiar items in contact, and as I'm sure that was mentioned below that some Natural oils come into play. Now Metal on Wood= disimiliar materials in contact, and thus the add'l friction. I was going to say "and thus the rub", but it wouldn't of really made sense. ;~)

T.O.

Re: Plane sole drag?

Mike G. in SC

>As an aside question...Don't Japanese planes just contact the wood at the toe, at the mouth where the iron cuts the wood and the heel...meaning that there are only three points of contact? Seems like I read that somewhere. Seems like there would be very little friction.

Mike G. in SC