By myself a dovetail saw for Christmas

Re: By myself a dovetail saw for Christmas

thomd

>I bought 3 of the Independence when they came out, and have been very happy with them. Frankly the quality of the saw is much less important than the person behind it. When I do demos I sometime use saws from a wide spectrum including hacksaws, and toolbox saws, and the results are pretty equivalent. A good saw makes the process more enjoyable and efficient, and narrows down what one has to work on. If nothing else it can't any longer be the saw. I would highly recomend getting a good one.

LV usually has a good japanese dovetail saw for around 30. I bought several of the one they had before the current one, and it was as good as the Ind. but about 1/4 the price. That one had a steel backing and no rattan on the handle. The current one I haven't tried yet.

I have seen, but not tried the Pax saw and it didn't really look all that well filed. I don't think it's the same as the better saws, just a mater of having less bling. It's look like a lot of the saws one used to see prior to Independence, too much set, teeth not sharp. I have several of that ilk, and none of them would cut worth a darn. I would prefer a small hacksaw.

Re: By myself a dovetail saw for Christmas

thomd

>If you already have a dcent gent's saw, you might try the Mario Rodrieguez touch up. the idea is to file two teeth into one. And to file them square across, so that they are rip teeth, and to leave the set as is unless it requires some change.

My only addition is to make a safe file. Take a new properly sized saw file and dull the teeth on one side by grinding on a belt sander or possibly a stone. You don't need to remove them just kill the edges so the teeth won't cut. Leave the corners sharp. With this file put the dull edge on the face of the tooth and use the sharp one to deepen the gullet until the back of one tooth merges into the second. A straight downward cut in line with the face of the tooth. You can also buy safe files from gunsmith's suppliers, maybe MSC.

This makes a pretty fast cutting saw. It won't handle narrow stock all that well.

Re: By myself a dovetail saw for Christmas *LINK*

Marc in Luxembourg

>Stephen,

LN and Adria saws are very good indeed, you can't go wrong with them. Nevertheless I'd ask Mike to make me one, if I didn't have done already ;-) He will tailor a saw round your grip, length you want, ppi you want, handle you want, height you want... Best you can do, you rely entirely on him.

For saw sharpening, I would recommend you try something a little coarser first, say 5 or 6 ppi and then move on slowly to finer teeth. As I do not have much practice myself, I find it already a huge jump going from 13 ppi to 15 ppi and would never even dare thinking of filing anything finer as I won't have enough exercise.

Regards, Marc


Mike

Re: By myself a dovetail saw for Christmas

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>I totally agree with you on the LV Professional Dozuki, a wonderful saw for dovetailing, usually done in two strokes, a true bargain. An equivalent (there may be others I haven't tried) is the LN straight handled dovetail, also zip-zip you're done, not so much a bargain, but well priced.

Pam

Re: By myself a dovetail saw for Christmas

GolfSteve in Calgary

>Get the LN. You won't regret it.

The LN saw is what started me down the slippery slope.

Re: By myself a dovetail saw for Christmas

Jack Guzman from Maine

>The LN is what I use. I already had a decent saw,an old english made that was recut and sharpened by Tom Law, but saw the LN at Clarence Blanchard's table at a ww show and couldn't pass it up.I love it.You won't regret getting one,however,I second the idea of contacting Mike and getting a saw made just for you.He does nice work.---Jack

You can't go wrong with a LN, but...

Scott Burr in Ben Lomond CA

>Some people have a hard time starting it. I need to be careful in not applying too much downward pressure when starting the saw, especially in softer woods. It's a fine saw, but as others have stated you might want to speak to Mike W.

A further note on cutting dovetails

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>I think it's been a while since I said this, so maybe it bears repeating: cutting dovetails is a trivial pursuit. The length of the cut is miniscule. There are no curves. You simply need to learn to saw straight. Mark Grable, a metate (sharpens and tunes Japanese saws) in the US, says the best way to learn how to saw is to pick a saw way too big for the job. So on some scrap it may be a good idea to try some dovetail sawing with a panel saw.

Because it is so trivial (and I really mean this, people), the type of saw makes no significant difference. Crosscut? Fine. Rip? Fine. Some mixture? Fine. Lots of set? Fine (at least until you're ready to try tiny pins). No set? Fine.

So the only pertinent question is which saw gives you the confidence you need to learn to saw straight. Buy that saw and be happy.

Pam

have to agree

John Pappas

>

Re: You can't go wrong with a LN, but... *LINK*

Derek Cohen (in Perth, Australia)

>I agree with both Scott (here) and Pam (below).

While one can cut dovetails with just about anything, why would you? For most of us here, this is a hobby. It should be fun, and a good looking dovetail saw increases the pleasure of a well-cut hand-made joint.

The LN saw is a really nice saw. I find it very comfortable in the hand. And it is not a bad looker! :>) For some - myself included - it has a tendency to grab a little, usually at the start of a cut. This is more pronounced in thin boards (about 1/4" thick), where there is a little more flex. Others do not experience this phenomenon, but it is a recognised feature of teeth that are rip filed and very upright. A less aggressive orientation helps.

I had the opportunity to send a near-identical saw to Mike Wenzloff to tune/refile, then wrote a brief report of the result. See the link below. If you have the time to wait for delivery (his are custom saws, not off the shelf), his would be my first choice. Nevertheless, do not misread my comments about LN (and Adria which, from reports, are a tad more aggressive still) as a negative recommendation. I love my LN in thicker woods. It is just not the automatic choice in thin boards.

Regards from Perth

Derek


Father and Son - IT and LN Dovetail Saws

This makes a lot of sense

Joanne in Pt. Pleasant, PA

>I have the LN. It is a gorgeous saw and cuts beautifully. But I am a novice in the hand tool department (although I can even see I'm improving!). When I first got the saw a few years ago, my dovetails were awful. I think mostly because I was not very proficient at cutting straight. I've practiced and keep incorporating that joint in the projects I choose. My dovetails have greatly improved. I think this is largely due to learning how to cut straight and precisely to whatever part of the line I need to. The other two things that have improved my dovetails are sharp chisels, and taking my time and concentrating.

Re: You can't go wrong with a LN, but...

thomd

>Interesting review but you kinda botched your chance of comparing the two saws since the IT was customized to your local woods. In the end you review sorta confirms the suggestion that the LN is catchy while not really dealing with whether the issue is somehow a manufacturing difference or just the usual difference one experiences with saws filled to one purpose and used for another. Like drawing conclusions about an LV plane vs. an LV plane without their having the same beading angle. So I will be interested to read the follow-up whem the LN get the MW treatment.

Re: You can't go wrong with a LN, but...

Derek Cohen (in Perth, Australia)

>Hi Thom

I would not call this a review. More of a set of observations and descriptions. This was written soon after receiving the IT saw. I never set out to examine the LN, per se, but rather to compare their physical attributes for those who had not seen them together in the flesh and were curious to know how the LN compared to the original.

As I said earlier, there are some LN users who do not experience the "catching" I described. As a result I would be very cautious to conclude that this is inherent in all LN dovetail saws. However I think that it is reasonable to state that the filing configuration chosen by LN is associated with these characteristics. Since each saw is finished by hand - as I believe them to be - there will be individual differences. This might explain why some do and others don't. Issues related to technique should be cancelled out by using the two saws in the same way.

Anyway, it is now time for a follow-up, one that describes their cutting under different conditions. I hope to get to that sometime in the near future.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Re: A further note on cutting dovetails

Moses Yoder in White Pigeon, MI

>One observation I would have to add is that cutting anything with a dull saw is not much fun. You should have seen the cuts I tried to make with a back saw found at a garage sale that I think was probably used to make half bricks. I of course was not ignorant, I just didn't know any better (an old family joke). I think a good dovetail saw would be filed with a steep rake, maybe 5� - 7�, and 10� - 15� fleam. This is a combination between rip and crosscut, which makes a smooth fast cut. Using a saw that cuts good and fast makes dovetail cutting much more fun, increasing the confidence level which leads to better cutting.

Follow up - I got the LN

Stephen Kirk in Quakertown, PA

>And all I gotta say is WOW. I had no idea sawing could be this fun or easy. Really tight kerf, tracks amazing well. I've been using bigger Disston saw for a while, and I had no trouble starting the LN (even though I was ready for it). The weight of the saw and it just falls into the cut is amazing. I cleaned the oil off with a little mineral spirits, layed out a dovetail on some scrap poplar and gave it a try. While my dovetails are still rather amateurish, my cuts were straighter and cleaner, I had less pronounced gaps, and my fit was tighter.

Yeah, it's a pricey tool, but I'm glad I can concentrate on my own layout, cutting and chiseling, and not do so much worrying about whether my saw is sharp or set correctly or has the right rake, etc.

Now I really do think that with a little more practice, I'll be cutting decent, tight fitting dovetails, and then maybe I'll be ready to tackle some of the other varieties.

All in all, I'm a very happy customer.

Re: A further note on cutting dovetails

thomd

>I certainly agree it's not that hard holding a line when you are hardly penetrating the wood. The one thing that is an issue with Dovetails, that is not an issue with a lot of other joints, and one might almost say is never an issue in Japanese work, is keeping the start-up on the pins clean enough to mark out the tails from. If the Japanese did much of this kind of work, I assume they would probably mark both sides of the joint independantly such is their approach to lay-out. So using an extra large say may on not be a good way to learn to saw, but it make the challenge of not blooping the top of the pins greater.

The japanese are after all the folks who have an endless variety of specific saws designed to do things like cut the end off a peg, or cut the abuttments of a plane. I'm sure they don't begrudge us a little dovetail saw.

Cool. Welcome to hand tool land.

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>

True, I agree on sharp.

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>

Re: A further note on cutting dovetails

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>I don't think anyone begrudges anyone a little dovetail saw. Good point on keeping the lines clean.

Pam

Re: True, I agree on sharp.

Miles

>I bought the Adria saws, over the LN, as I could see the slight distortion of the saw plate where the LN teeth had been set, but the Adria saw plate was perfectly flat until the teeth. Seemed clear to me that the flat plate had to be preferable, even though it's not obvious that it would make a real difference...

Both saws felt good, looked fine, and both deserve to have money spent on them :-)

It is very nice to have both a rip and crosscut tenon saw - the difference in cutting action is pronounced, even though you can make good progress with the 'wrong' one if you have to. The precision of the filing on these saws is exemplary - I can't imagine it being better. Only shame is that Eddie Sirotich doesn't do resharpening himself, though he does make a recommendation. I guess Mike W would be a good option too. There are NO top-quality saw filing services over here, as far as I can tell! No way this saw is going to a jobbing saw doctor!

happy Christmas to all, and may all your presents arrive on time :-)

Miles

Congarats, I for one feel ya made the right choice

Scott Burr in cold/hailing Ben Lomond, CA

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