Jefferson Dovetails

Re: Jefferson Dovetails

thomd

>I share your angst about art, however, the thing as always is to be the first to think like a child, seeing the thing for the first time. Dovetails, for instance, are not all that complex an idea. Had my thinking been turned in that direction, say finger joints already had been invented, I don't know that it would have taken me too long to go there myself, but then it always seems that way when one has the thing already there.

Another example, if negative, would be sports. Once upon a time people could race bikes, or whatever, and it wasn't required, would have seemed ridiculous, to take drugs to win those races. Time goes on and almost the opposite comes into play, everyone has been taking drugs and for a long time in the case of pro cycling. Do people really not want to see anything that looks different from when cycling was done on iron clunkers. They exhausted all the non-extreme alternatives, and what is left is both inevitable, and rather hollow.

As far as dovetail sockets are concerned they used vey narrow chisels and usually thin stock, and were able to take out the socket with one strike a side. It created elegant and practically strong/light boxes that were fast to construct.

Kingshott

Paul M. in San Diego

>I like Kingshott's description of cutting tiny dovetail sockets. He just "waggles the saw about" to make a wider kerf at the bottom of the socket.

Re: Jefferson Dovetails

Adam Cherubini

>They aren't THAT small, are they? Drawers of this size are fairly typical of secretaries.

So just so we're on the same page, we're talking about the drawer, and I think you are talking about the size of the pins.

Cutting the dovetails is a simple matter. Early dt saws were thinner than Disston's- .015 thick at most. So the saw cuts weren't that tricky. The trick is chopping the waste. Those drawers sides were pretty thin, so he could have used just about anything including the tip of a knife. He also could have used a chisel held at an angle, but my guess is he had a very thin chisel.

Adam

what I suspected

bill tindall, E. TN

>A simply narrow chisel would, in of itself, not be the answer. The chisel would have to be appropriately narrow in width( about 1/8)as well as very thin (which would not be mechanically practical) or the chisel sides tapered the same angle, or less, as the dovetail to be made. It would be an odd looking chisel and I am not sure it would be mechanically stiff enough to be functional. On the other hand, if the chisel was very short such a profile could be stiff enough to be functional. I suspect the easiest way to have removed the waste would have been to just saw it away as the dovetail width was only about 3 kerfs wide. Those folks were not so picky about the perfection of the fit on a drawer.

Re: Jefferson Dovetails

Donald Pierson

>In making regular dovetails or twisted dovetails I rarely use a chisel. A saw cut on each face of the socket then use a thin bladed fret saw across the bottom of the socket to remove the waste. Ditto for the tails/fingers. I think I picked up this techniqure for David Charlesworth first book...Don in rainy,rainy,windy Vancouver,WA,USA

Re: what I suspected

adam Cherubini, NJ

>A simply narrow chisel would, in of itself, not be the answer.

Don't say that. At least not without trying it first. I think those pins are bigger than 1/8" at the back. They may be 3/16". So an 1/8" chisel would fit in there. Remember that the sides aren't thick, so the chisel's cannel may never get buried if you cut in from both sides which you would do. So the chisel's thickness may not come in to play. You could try the saw kerfs, but I don't see how that would give you a clean surface. And remember the saw that cut those tails probably made an .020 kerf which would require alot more than three passes.

I don't know who made that box. I'm assuming it is of English origin. I don't think John Hemmings made it, for example. They could have sharpened a nail for that job tho.

Adam

Re: Jefferson Dovetails

joel -( tools for working wood)

>I am pretty sure the cuts were made with a few saw cuts, the waste mostly sawed into and then a few cuts with a chisl to clean up the baseline. I am convinced the reason is speed not ethetics- althought it looks cool. I doubt a fret saw would have been used because at that time the blades would have been hand made and expensive to replace.

Adams vice

Warren in Lancaster, PA

>Adams vice was Jefferson.

I read about the box and saw it some years ago. It was "designed" by Jefferson for himself and built by a Philadelphia cabinetmaker around 1776. I agree with you Adam, the chisel doesn't have to go all the way through and it also doesn't have to be quite full width because of the saw kerfs. There may be some scarring from the chisel on the back side that we can't see.

Re: FSD

thomd

>All true etc... and I saw Matt Hedley's crew do it just like that on the Woodwright Shop quite a few years back. A key is the thickness of the stock. One thing people forget these days is how good care people used to take of stuff. Nowadays one often has to make drawers with heavier scantlings than a 40 foot yacht. Who know what nonsense will be perpertrated on the sock drawer? With very light material one can punch out these dovetails with hardly any more difficulty than parts for a balsa model.

The fret saw is an old trick, though I believe I may have a unique twist on it. I have a few unique tricks for dovetails. I need a mag publisher.

Speaking of stuff that certainly isn't new (well in one sense I finished it, so far, Saturday), but may or not be old... My lattest chisel: Very narrow! So as to cut into dovetails with hardly a whimper. An FSD for those in the know, born just outside Camp-X.

3 degree bevel angle. Sure, pry if you want, but not on mine.

Re: Jefferson Dovetails

Paul Mosteller ( Springfield, VA )

>Lon Schleining did an article on it in Fine Woodworking #144, maybe that will help.

Re: Jefferson Dovetails

David Charlesworth

>It was quite common in UK to have 1/16" and 3/16" chisels.

I also like Japanese mini chisels which come at 1.5 mm and 4.5 mm, these have short blades which make good sense.

I have seen several craftsman's chisels modified for fine dovetail work with just the last 1/2 or 3/4" ground to fit with sloped edges.

The finest dovetails I have seen come on the tiny drawers of dressing table mirrors. Georgian and later.

It is quite clear that the two sloped dovetail sawcuts for the sockets, entered though the same kerf.

In UK we had very fine toothed dovetail and gents saws.

20 tpi was still common when I started and I believe 24 tpi was available before the war. Some of the gents or beading saws are much finer.

Not a saw expert, just my observations,

David Charlesworth

thanks for insight

bill tindall, E. TN

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