Back Saws and a "Hybrid" tooth pattern?

Re: Back Saws and a "Hybrid" tooth pattern?

paul womack

>I have a DT saw with (what are apparently called) hybrid teeth; 8 degree rake and 8 degree fleam.

I find the minor fleam also helps in sharpening (it's easier to see the alternate teeth pattern) and makes the saw a little less "catchy".

I *hate* trying to put minimal set on DT saws with small, rip filed, teeth, since the only way of telling the alternate teeth apart is the set, which is (as stated...) minimal. Hard on the eyes.

BugBear

Re: Back Saws and a "Hybrid" tooth pattern?

Adam Cherubini

>Steve,

I don't know about the historical existance of "hybrid" -(rip/cross cut) filings. I know many woodworkers have experimented with them and many like them.

To answer your question, there is no saw tooth panacea. Everything is a trade off. I don't use hybrid filings for a couple reasons:

1) I'm not willing to sacrifice any sawing efficiency. I want optimized saws and I'm willing to make or buy many saws to get what I want.

2) My rip saws get a lot of use and I like being able to sharpen them fast. Any amount of fleam is just that much harder. Okay, its not THAT much harder. Think about this, but don't make up your mind on this point.

Personally, I object to calling a 14" back saw a tenon saw. The practice is new and unhelpful. If your tenons are small (widthwise) you can get away with a small finely toothed saw. Otherwise, you'll need something with a bit more length. Traditionally, tenon saws were 16-19" long. (ref- Smith's key) My tenon is 19" long and .025" thick. Mike Wenz makes saws like this one, and Chris Schwarz owns and has written about his Wenz tenon (check his blog). So I would read about that saw in particular before deciding anything.

So strictly in terms of sawing tenons...

Side track:

Suppose you are making a table with an apron tenoned to the legs- a very typical joint. If the table is eating height, that apron should be one capital deep or 2/15 of the height (30"). That puts that apron at 4" deep. You can't efficiently saw a 4" tenon with a 14" saw with 12tpi. I mean, if you're willing to do that I have a framed tenon saw (hack saw) to sell you.

So for 80% of the tenons a traditional craftsman may face, a longer saw is required.

Back to the hybrid teeth and the table: You've got 16, 4" wide, probably 1-1/2" deep cuts to make just for the upper apron. Exactly how long do you want to spend doing that? A cut that deep is almost a resaw. I say skip the hybrid teeth. Buy the 14" LN saw cross cut for the shoulder cuts, then call Mike Wenz and have him make you a proper tenon saw. Better yet, call Mike NOW (see below) and make him make you a matched set with some exotic wood handles.

Adam

PS Keep in mind that an hour from now, Mike is going to have a bunch of orders for this exact set-up. So don't blame me if you foot drag and then get a delivery date 6 months from now. I'm not kidding about calling him right away.

I make saws and I couldn't sell mine for Mike's prices. There's a lot of hand work in those handles. (It kinda ticks me off when people look at my saws and marvel at the fine teeth- that takes like 45 minutes. I spend hours on my handles.) So my point is, I don't see Mike in business forever. He's going to realize someday that he's making $10/hour and then we'll all be screwed. So my advice is buy now.

Or, save some time and money and... *LINK*

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>mental hassle and just get a ryoba, 240-300 mm will be plenty, and saw away, ripping those cheeks and crossing those shoulders. Your only concern will be sawing straight. Now if you'll be sawing greater than 4" or so tenons, go with a single bladed saw, you don't want the crosscut teeth to be submerged very far.

The Mitsukawa, Chuyemon, and Nakaya are fine, at least partly handmade (the Chuyemon are a special deal, all handmade, they're only cheap because he died before preparing them for shipping by stamping his trademark and/or logo).

Pam


Ryoba at Hida

Mike W. is here...

Joe Rogers, Northern Virginia

>at this address;

http://www.wenzloffandsons.com/saws/index.html

If any one wants to follow Adams advice:-)JR

Re: Or, save some time and money and...

thomd

>The japanese also have hybrid saws. I have a ryoba that just has two sizes of teeth on it, and I also have a dozuki this way. The idea to answer Adam's legitimate concern about efficiency is that not all cuts are with or across the grain, either because of direction of the cut or direction of the grain. Not a terribly Japanese prception though since their work is more recilinear than ours.

The other way to go about this would be the Frid way where he sawed "everything" with thin balde tensioned rip bowsaws.

Re: Back Saws and a "Hybrid" tooth pattern?

Ted Shuck, Centennial, CO

>BugBear wrote:

I *hate* trying to put minimal set on DT saws with small, rip filed, teeth, since the only way of telling the alternate teeth apart is the set, which is (as stated...) minimal. Hard on the eyes.

===

I used to get all mixed up setting teeth on finely toothed saws until I started marking even/odd teeth with a felt-tip marker before setting. It only takes a minute or two and takes away a lot of frustration.

Ted

Re: Back Saws and a "Hybrid" tooth pattern?

mikew

>Hi Stephen,

I don't really refer to rip teeth with fleam and or relaxed rake as a hybrid, but agree with the sentiments. Really, I personally look at tooth profiles as a continuim between very agressive to very "relaxed." At one end, they rip better than cross cut and at the other they cross cut better than rip. That lack of distinction isn't very helpful when communicating, though.

Mixed in there is the cut surface left behind. As well as speed and ease of cut. As Adam said, there are tradeoffs, and I believe these tradeoffs should be considered in a perfect world.

Things to consider is the wood one normally uses, the skill of the person, what type of use the saws are intended for, personal preference, and the list could go on.

Take care, Mike

Re: Back Saws and a "Hybrid" tooth pattern?

stephen wiseman

>Thanks Everyone as I got a real education on hand saws in general!

Best,

Stephen

Re: Or, save some time and money and...

stephen wiseman

>Nice link Pam, Thanks as I didn't know anout Hida.

Best,

Stephen

Re: Back Saws and a "Hybrid" tooth pattern?

paul womack

>I used to get all mixed up setting teeth on finely toothed saws until I started marking even/odd teeth with a felt-tip marker before setting. It only takes a minute or two and takes away a lot of frustration.

When you're down on 16 tpi or 18 tpi, I think marking them with a pen would also be quite hard. This issue really only applies to DT saws, since most tenon saws either have quite visible size teeth, or are crosscut, or both.

BugBear

Re: Back Saws and a "Hybrid" tooth pattern?

paul womack

> I want optimized saws and I'm willing to make or buy many saws to get what I want.

Wow! Either you do a limited range of work, or I'd LOVE to see your saw rack!

BugBear

exactly

david.m.brown

>That's why I asked Mike W. to make me a Seaton-sized tenon saw, as written about by Chris Schwarz. I've got a 12" back saw that's 12ppi, also made by Mike W. It's a great little saw but cutting a tenon that's larger than 2", width wise, is an exercise in frustration. The saw is fine but teeth that small get packed w/ swarf and stop cutting. I cut some tenons for my dining table that were 4" wide by 3-3/4" deep w/ that saw and it wasn't fun. Thank goodness the wood was cypress and not oak or maple. I might have had to resort to the bandsaw. :)

Re: Back Saws and a "Hybrid" tooth pattern?

Ted Shuck, Centennial, CO

>"When you're down on 16 tpi or 18 tpi, I think marking them with a pen would also be quite hard."

I find marking them with a fine felt tip pen easier than setting them. All you need to do it touch the tooth with the pen to mark it. It only takes a minute or so to mark a dovetail saw. There is no way that I could keep track of the correct tooth to set without doing this.

Ted

Re: exactly

paul womack

>Most of the early 20c books I have show large tenons (e.g. doors) being cut with a hand saw (i.e. backless); these also have comparitively coarse teeth compared with most backed saws

BugBear

Re: I'll try that

paul womack

>

Re: Back Saws and a "Hybrid" tooth pattern?

joel -( tools for working wood)

>I don't think I would argue your point when it comes to a big table but what about the chairs? A table has 8 big tenons but the 8 or 10 chairs you need to work around that table will have potenitally hundreds of small tenons that will be awkward and tiring for a big tenon saw.

Obviously the best solution is to have all the sizes of saws but if one is getting their first non-dovetail saw I think the 12" carcass saw is a pretty useful length. After all for larger tenons one can always cut the shoulders and split out the cheeks - a fast and historically accurate method. The Sheffield Key which you refer too lists a 12" carcass saw and a 14" sash saw. The latter is referring I think to window sashes but the former - "carcass saw" I find is a great length for general cabinetry work. I would put money that most of the "tenon" saws sold through the key back in the day were used for Doors and general house construction, not furniture - although as you point out it is handy for larger stuff.

Re: Back Saws and a "Hybrid" tooth pattern?

Adam Cherubini

>Wow! Either you do a limited range of work, or I'd LOVE to see your saw rack!

I'd be happy to show it to you. You can probably see some of my saws in the background of some of the photos of my shop. They hang on the wall to the right of my bench. I have many many saws, but use probably 20. But your other point is well taken, I do have a limtied repetoire. Not only that, but I tend to use similar species.

So you are right once again, my friend. My advice applies only to my experience, having no power tools, and using "stock" joinery, and relatively compliant woods.

Adam