Swiss German carving tools

More info please

Wiley Horne

>Stephen,

What magazine article?

Wiley

Re: More info please

Frank D. in Montreal

>Hi Wiley,

I believe Staphen is referring to David Calvo's article in Oct '06 PWW. Calvo says:

"On the other side of the coin, the poorest quality tools on the market today are the Swiss brands. Their tool design over the years has gotten thin. More significant, the steel quality has deteriorated. Initially, they made a good tool(...)but time and untrained consumers has gotten the better of them.

I was totally stumped when I read this. There was a rebuttal in the letters section of the next issue, with specific mention to Pfeil, but Calvo stood by his comments.

Re: Swiss German carving tools

paul womack

>Are German carving tools really that much better than Swiss carving tools?

I imagine any variation is between brands and models, not nationalities.

BugBear

Re: More info please

VTAndy3

>It really should have been noted, in the interest of disclosure, that Calvo _sells_ the German tools. I understand full well that he may choose to sell them because he thinks that they are superior. But finding out that he sells them does put his comment in a different light. I might have overlooked a note about him selling German carving tools in the article? At any rate, if you go to his website you'll find the tools.

I also felt that in responding to the letter, Calvo could have used the opportunity to show, in more detailed comments, why the Swiss tools aren't up to his standards. It's one thing to have a preference, it's another thing altogether -- and to be expected of a teacher -- to be able to articulate the preference.

-Andy

Agree

Frank D. in Montreal

>His response (no response) did look a little bad...made me wonder how rational his preference was, although I am certainly what he calls an "untrained consumer." I have a few German brands (Two Cherries and Heidtmann) and I like Pfeils a lot, both the thinness of the blades (makes getting into tight spots easier sometimes, feels less chunky) and the steel, as well as the handles they come with.

The sound of silence

woodburnbob

>Good question, Stephen. A few weeks ago I entertained myself by reading most, if not all, of the WC carving archive. Henry Taylor carving tools have been disparaged for many years, but I always had the sense those doing the disparaging didn't own any. So I asked the WC carving forum a question similar to yours. Two weeks. Nearly a 100 hits. Not a single comment, one way or the other.

I sure hope we're all not a herd of sheep or cows being chased from one pasture to the next by little barking dogs...or even worse: a taped recording of little barking dogs on Memorex.

Re: More info please *LINK*

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>There's a "Supplies" sidebar on p. 55 (PWW 10/06) that says he sells the Two Cherries.

As to why the Swiss tools aren't up to his standards, he says in the original article that they're made with poor steel and are too thin. I don't know that I'd subscribe to this, although the few Pfeil (new, Swiss) I have are much lighter weight than the Dastra (old and new, German) and Addis (old, UK) I also have. There's also the Swiss brand sold by Woodcarver. I suspect he's talking mostly about Pfeil and Swiss.

I bought a starter set of 6 Pfeil at Woodcraft, and they worked fine, particularly as starters and for light duty work, they take a very sharp edge; but I prefer the feel of Dastra and Addis. For example, I bought some spoons and bent spoons for carving cabriole legs and chose to wait for the appropriate Addis to show up on ebay and/or the UK old tool sites rather than buy the Pfeils, or even the Dastras (to be honest, this was more because at the time, a couple of years ago, the Dastra web site was brand new and only in German and I wasn't 100% sure, even with graphics, of what I'd be buying).

Nora Hall recommends Dastra and Stubai (also German), but I notice that she's replaced her Stubai offerings with Dastra. She said this was more about the hassles of obtaining Dastras a couple of years ago, having to deal with the apparently unreliable US Dastra distributor at the time, and that the quality of Stubai and Dastra are about the same.

I find Calvo's recommendation of Two Cherries a little strange as their carving chisels always seemed kind of clunky to me, but this was based only on photos, not any actual use. The ones he shows on his web site look fine. Based on the Hall and Agrell (Ian, an architectural carver, as is Nora) tapes I've watched, they significantly modify the edges of the tools they use (Ian, IIRC, doesn't recommend any particular brand), so perhaps the Pfeil and Swiss brands don't provide enough cutting steel for this.

And even better, although not suitable for delicate work at the sizes I have, are the Takahashi I recently purchased on ebay. For more delicate work, check out the ones below, available at Hida and everywhere else. With these you whittle down the wood to reveal more blade when the blade gets too short for use.

Pam




Takahashi at Iida

Re: The sound of silence

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>There are usually two reasons no one on WC responds to a question. I suspect in this case it's because no one has and/or uses any Taylors anymore; therefore, they're unable to answer your question. FWIW, I was told that the new Taylor steel is weak, they bend/fold and don't hold edges. Because of that, I never bought any.

Also, most of the tool oriented discussions on the carving forum involved power carvers. That and the lack of activity caused me to drop out six months or a year ago.

Pam

Henry Taylor

Warren in Lancaster, PA

>I have used Henry Taylor carving tools since 1978. Over the years the carving portion of my business has grown to the point that it now supplies about half my income, so I have a carving tool in my hand a lot. I have a few odd tools from other makers, not enough to make comparisons.

When I hear people disparage these tools it is a little odd, but there are a lot of variables involved. Are they making the tools the same as ten years ago? How does this person sharpen the tools? How abusive is this person to the tool in use?

I would recommend that a person who wants to start carving visit another craftsman, see how they work and sharpen, try out a few tools, etc. I would buy individual tools rather than sets even though the set may seem cheaper per tool. A set of tools by a maker you decide you don't like isn't worth much.

Re: Henry Taylor

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>Very good advice, Warren, but I didn't hear you four or six years ago. My basic point was that when people who's advice I trust tell me such and such a tool is no good, I don't need to buy it and test it, I simply don't buy it. And when ten people who's advice I trust say it's no good, I start feeling downright self-satisfied that I didn't buy it. Now, on the other hand, when everyone, trusted and untrusted, start saying it's no good, I start questioning their advice and, depending on the tool, may pick up one just to test it out. But then I'm extremely contrarian, believing that almost anything 40 million people like isn't worth squat. :)

Pam

Re: Henry Taylor

Bob Hackett

>I can tell you that their turning tools are top notch.I`ve been using them for years and recommend them highly.

MB

Re: The sound of silence

GolfSteve in Calgary

>I have both Henry Taylor and Pfiel woodcarving chisels along with several other brands. I haven't done much carving the last few years, but my impression of the brands are:

1. Henry Taylor are hit and miss. I have about 10 HT gouges. Some are great, but about three just won't hold an edge well.

2. Pfiel I am quite happy with. They are a much lighter chisel, so perhaps are not as durable, but I don't do much heavy mallet work anyway. My favourite gouges are the Pfiel fishtail gouges.

3. I also have a bunch of cheapo "made in China" type carving chisels. It took a lot of work to reprofile the bevel and get these sharpened properly, but once that was done they actually work pretty well.

4. I really like Flexcut knives but don't own any of their gouges.

Re: The sound of silence

GolfSteve in Calgary

>I forgot I also own a set of Hirsch gouges/knives (my first carving tools). The gouges are excellent but I have never liked the knives.

Re: Henry Taylor

thomd

>Bingo. I can't say what about what on anything all that new but the turning tools of theirs I bought years ago were good. Doesn't really help anyone today. These days turning tools are pretty much a comoditised. There are better and worse brands to be sure but it's all automated so it really doesn't mater, and increasingly they are just tool holders for cutters like metal working. In the old days sharpening carbon turnign tools by hand...

Re: Henry Taylor

David Charlesworth

>Pam,

I think that concisely sums up the principal dilemma for forum readers!

David

Warren in Lancaster

Stephen

>I posted the question because I'm building the pipe box in Fine Woodworking #173 by Lonnie Bird. In the article he shows a drawer that has a Massachusetts shell carving. I live close to Lancaster any possibility of you showing me how to carve one and to get an idea what chisels I need?

Stephen

Wiley Horne

>Welcome to the forum! Here's my own personal experience on the question you asked. I have Two Cherries, Dastra (also German), Ashley Iles (English), and Pfeil (Swiss-made) carving gouges. My favorite are the Two Cherries and Ashley Iles. But this is just a personal preference based on the way they feel--the Pfeils hold their edge as well as the others in my experience.

The Pfeils I have are in small sizes, in fact, Pfeil makes certain useful sizes (like 0.5mm and 1.0mm No. 11 veiners) that no one else seems to make. Here are a couple of things I like about the Pfeils I own. First, they have a beautiful long low bevel, which usually suits me better than a steeper bevel. Second--and this is good if you're just starting--they arrive really sharp from the factory. This is helpful because a gouge (more than most other edgetools) is useless if it is not critically sharp, and the Pfeils give you an idea how sharp they need to be to produce results. They tell you how good your sharpening needs to be.

The Two Cherries also have a nice low bevel. They will need honing before the first use. It's best to have some instruction on honing gouges before getting started, because even if you're a good sharpener on other tools, it's easy to mess up the shoulders on a gouge if you don't know to keep them squared up.

I like Ashley Iles a lot. Don't know exactly why I like them--I kinda like the round handles. They come quite sharp also from the factory, just need a light strop and you're carving. I tend to grind the bevels lower on my AI's. They're a bit huskier than the Two Cherries, but I don't see where that is an advantage or disadvantage. The steel is perfectly good on all of these that I have named.

One thing to be aware of--the English numbering system varies a bit from the continental Europe numbering system. This is covered well on www.toolsforworking wood.com (Joel's place). In most of the sweeps, the English gouge will be numbered one unit lower than the comparable European gouge. For example, an Ashley Iles #5 will be the same sweep as a Two Cherries or Pfeil #6. Keep this in mind if you're mixing and matching between English and European makes.

Vintage gouges can be great, but in general you will need to know how to set them up if you buy them off ebay for example. Good chance the shoulders won't be square or the bevel messed up somehow. Also, people know the real good vintage gouges, and they tend to get priced right up there.

I notice you asked Warren for some help getting started--that is the very best thing of all, and will be far more valuable than any consideration of which make of gouge to acquire. There are lots of good gouges, but skilled instruction is the most valuable thing.

Wiley

Re: Warren in Lancaster

Warren in Lancaster, PA

>Send me an e-mail, Stephen and we can work something out. It isn't always easy to look at a design and name the tools needed (sometimes in production work you don't settle on the most efficient group of tools for the first few times), but you can get some ideas.

Pipe box *LINK*

GolfSteve in Calgary

>Hi Stephen. I built that pipe box (without the carved shell) last year. It's a nice project. I made several changes that I think improved the design:

1. I added rabbets to the front and back pieces to accept the sides. I think that this made the glue up alignment MUCH easier than trying to juggle four slippery cats (the wood pieces) and a bunch of clamps at the same time.

2. I changed the grain orientation of the piece of wood at the bottom of the compartment (the piece that is located above the drawer). Changing the grain orientation allowed that piece to be partially glued into dadoes on the sides and back, removing the need for the cut nails that Lonnie used.

3. I veneered the front of the pipe box with matching vertical grain because I thought it looked better than the horizontal grain drawer front.

Good luck with the shell carving!


Link to my version of that project

Carving the shell

GolfSteve in Calgary

>Stephen,

What I would do once you pick out a couple of gouges (and get them sharpened) is to take a piece of basswood and practice carving the shell once or twice. Once you get the feel of carving the shell on an easy wood, then attempt carving the shell on your final wood (presumably maple or cherry or something much harder than basswood to carve).

The basswood will let you get the feel of the carving, but won't necessarily carve as cleanly as something like maple or cherry. Basswood is soft and tends to leave a lot of strings and fuzzy bits.

Re: Carving the shell

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>Think I'd choose mahogany, for both practice and piece if it suits. You get nice sharp carvings without the effort required for a harder wood such as maple, walnut, or oak.

Pam

Thats one of the bests posts I've seen on

vlparisian

>these boards. Keep up the great work.

Thanks for sharing,

Victor

Re: Excellent POST!

Chris K in MD

>