"Record Vices" *LINK*

Re: "Record Vices"

thomd

>The Charlesworth bench? Is that the one missing the finish all along the apron? For a while there I thought LN was selling the Fortune Bench. The hardware for that if I remember was the 52.5, and the special tail vise hardware sold by Atlas tools.

I always prefered the BIG Record (53?) and I would only ever have the quick release. More recently I vastly prefer the Tucker vise, or even the various rip-offs of the Emmert.

Re: "Record Vices"

Tony Zaffuto

>As an "addendum" question to Record vises, I have noticed in several mail order catalogs, Record "sash" clamps being available. For all intents and purposes, they appear (at least in print) to be identical to those offered by the "Record of old" of several years ago.

Has Irwin begun to resurrect the Record line? Anyone able to "weigh in" with the country of origin? Any of you guys from the U.K. hear any rumors?

Thanks and Happy Thanksgiving to one and all!

T.Z.

Why not ask David Charlesworth?

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>

Re: Why not ask David Charlesworth?

thomd

>He probably has. David may well be along.

If'in your getting the bench from LN... *LINK*

Scott Burr in Ben Lomond, CA

>You could get a quick-release vise from them too. Personaly I'd stay away from Record/Irwn products.


LN Vise

Re: "Record Vices"

Hank Knight from SC

>I don't think Irwin discontinued all Record products when they acquired Record. As far as the vises are concerned, I was told by an Irwin rep that the factory where Record vises were made was very old and it would have been prohibitively expensive to upgrade it to meet environmental and other standards. Rather than retool or build a new factory, Irwin discontinued the vises.

Lee Valley

Jim in Burlington On

>Lee valley is selling some really nice quick release vises. Had a close look and they run smooth.

Re: "Record Vices"

stephen wiseman

>Thank you everyone! What a great bunch you are! The responses were VERY imformative and guess what!? Due to one member emailing me telling me a RECORD 53 was on EBay, I was able to win it! It is a quick release model which I am reading most of you recommended and if it doesn't work out well I've got a lot of good options now from you all and can always resell it. I realize I may get some more advice and appreciate that in advance if I do! Thanks again,

Stephen

Re: "Record Vices"

David Charlesworth

>The 10 1/2" Record 53 or 53E (quick acting) was the standard vice on most cabinetmakers benches for at least the last 50 years in the UK.

They are excellent and easy to use.

The plain screw version never wears out and the quick acting model occasionally needed a new half nut.

It is a great shame that they now seem to have the dog fitted to the moving jaw. This is a nasty lump to bang your hand/plane into when bevelling smallish components.

David Charlesworth

Missing finish along the apron?

David Charlesworth

>Thom,

What does that mean please?

David Charlesworth

Re: "Record Vices"

stephen wiseman

>Thank you David as your endorsement has given me the final confidence that the vice I just picked up on EBay is THE one - what luck (due to the responders on this thread!). Is replacing the half nut a major ordeal if I ever need to do that since this is in fact the quick release model?

Since she's going in a new L-N bench of your design would you restore it or...? It looks like it may only need a rust eraser and a paint job if I can match the "Record blue"

Thanks You!

Stephen

Re: "Record Vices"

Wiley Horne

>Stephen,

That looks like a home run to me. From the photo it's in fine shape. The guide rails are reflecting in the paint, which looks bright and sound. Don't see any restoration to be done. I think you're looking at just a little 000 or 0000 steel wool (if that), and a fresh spray with lithium grease. Smell the roses!

Wiley

Re: "Record Vices"

John Horobin

>Basically they moved all they could to china where production was cheaper! The foundry was not that old. I understand only the chisels are still UK made.

John

Half nut

David Charlesworth

>Stephen,

If the half nut is kept clean it should last a long time.

Replacing is not that difficult, though getting the spring tension right can take a little experimentation, as it is adjustable.

When using the quick adjust I give a half turn anticlockwise on the handle to ensure that the threads have engaged correctly, before closing up on the work.

PS

I was disappointed that Fine Woodworking did not include the design in the current Bench survey. The removable sliding tool well and size of front slab make an exceptionally simple and versatile work surface. It is easy to clamp more or less anything in any place quickly.

The underframe design is simple rigid and heavy. Many European designs have lightweight underframes, and variable thickness of top makes clamping difficult. Fixed tool wells compound this problem.

Apparently they like comparing apples with apples and the design is too radical or simple for them?

best wishes,

David

Re: half nut

paul womack

>replacing a half nut is trivial - I've dissassembled and re-assembled several Q/R vices, and it's just a "spanner job".

Finding a spare half nut, OTOH, might not be so trivial, I'm afraid.

They do last a very long time, but not forever, I'm afraid.

In amateur/weekend use, I suspect the lifespan will be ... *more* than sufficient

BugBear

Re: Half nut

stephen wiseman

>Thank you David and Paul,

Sounds like I will be okay for quite a while although,in the near future, I plan to be at my bench daily.

This is THE reason I'm buying this bench for it's simplicity and clamping ability due to having no apron, the removable tool well (radical!), etc...

Thanks Again,

Stephen

Re: Half nut

Miles

>David, I can't find anything really detailed you've made generally available about the way your bench design functions in use, and why the features each contribute, in your own view. If there is one of your articles about this in one of the magazines (or books) where would the best one be?

FWIW having seen a photo (in one of your books) and thought about it 'enough', I like it a lot and am converting an old bench top to this split arrangement (was originally a bench I made at 14 for my father!). My own next bench will also be of this pattern. I'm happy with how _I_ understand it, but I would still be very interested in an 'in depth' article about all the different ways it works from your POV.

I have added a small apron (about 2" deep, bit over an inch thick) under the front edge so that things can be clamped against it, but the overall front depth is small enough (~3 1/2") to allow a normal quick-clamp to work vertically and hold down modest stock on the bench top. The apron also stiffens the front edge, as the (beech) top is not that massive. I like to believe that this addition is a good idea - interested to see if you and others agree!

Miles

"Charlesworth Bench"

David Charlesworth

>Miles,

You are correct. I have not written a lot about bench usage and the fantastic usefulness of the innovative, removable centre tool well design.

There is one other design for a massive split top in Scott Landis' bench book, I think the logic was very similar.

There is a reasonable amount on page 12 of Book 1, in an article with good photos and a splendid exploded diagram of the structure.

One day I would like to write much more............

Afraid I don't like aprons of any kind as they always seem to interfere with clamping of jigs / fixtures/ stops to the surface.

I do clamp things to the front edge with a short sash clamp (or a long speed clamp) acting on the back edge of the front slab. This clamp can be on top or under the front slab.

No necessity for a slave as it is easy to clamp support blocks to the legs or bottom rail, whose surface is flush with the front face of the legs.

best wishes,

David Charlesworth

The list of other prejudices is long including, most end vices, heavy wooden cheeks on face vices, tops of variable thickness, fixed tool wells, over wide tops, spindly legs......drawers under which prevent easy clamping to entire bench top surface.....end clamps....dogs which will not allow planing of thin stuff, metal dogs...beginning to run out of steam here!

Re: "Charlesworth Bench"

Miles

>David, thanks for replying - and on a subject that attracts such long and usually inconclusive discussions! I have that book, and the bench article is very helpful, with some good illustrations of the way this pattern can be used. I'd like more, of course! I noticed a couple of surprising details - no dog on the moving vice jaw, and none behind the vice: does this mean that normally you don't fix small work there using the vice + dogs in the almost-universal way seen on all conventional European benches?

I remember you writing above that the moving-jaw dog is a great barker - of knuckles when bevelling small parts in the vice, so that makes sense, but your vice pictured on p10 has thick wooden jaws with no outer bevel on them, which would also have the same problem. I suppose the answer is to have an extra pair of taller temporary jaws with bevelled tops to clamp such parts.

I think I'm following most of the principles that led to your current design, but I'll leave my little apron (should that be 'pinny' :-) on as it's quite possible to clamp against its bottom surface just as if the top were rather thicker. My father (who the 'update' is for) doesn't have many long clamps so a front bearing surface usable with normal speed clamps seemed a good idea.

I can't get all the other details exactly as I'd like, but that's because I'm reusing the base I built all those years ago (24, to be exact) which is plenty rigid enough, though I have had to do some 'adjustments' to get the outer leg surfaces squared up so they can be clamped to without distorting things. If you had seen the conditions under which I built this, you might forgive it's unsquareness! I'm very proud of the fact that my very first edge-glued top stayed together, despite great abuse, until I ripped it down to make this change. It wasn't very flat, though...

The other difference is that the gap between front and rear top boards is going to me much narrower than your 10" - more like 2 or 3 inches. Enough to get clamps through, or clamp heads if horizontal, but the base is narrow, and discouraging tool well clutter is a good idea with a messy worker! My 'infill' piece is going to be a single length of laminated beech, which can be lifted out and is long enough to clamp onto the top to act as a stop or guide for the full length. It's also a useful straight-edge to have around.

One day, I hope to be able to visit Devon, and perhaps indulge in a short course - but have to get my sharpening up to scratch first... you seem to have rather a forbidding reputation in that department :-)

regards

Miles

ps one little mystery... I end up cutting the side of my chisel-guiding finger to shreds, because a nicely polished back and edges means a very sharp edge on the side of the chisel, sliding along against my skin... can't round it off without spoiling the cutting edge corners - how do you get around this??

Re: "Charlesworth Bench"

Paul M. in San Diego

>Hi Miles,

I've shredded my fingers multiple times on the razor edge on the sides of a nicely polished chisel. I just dub the side edge of the chisel with a fine stone until it no longer shreds your skin. This takes of so little metal that it will not affect the ability of the chisel to go into corners. Just a few strokes on a fine stone will staunch the bleeding. ;-)

Re: "Charlesworth Bench"

Miles

>Well, I suppose we must compromise somewhere - but I wonder how Mr. C fits that into what appears to be uncompromising tool preparation... :-)

I agree it can't really hurt to have a minute dub on those corners. Just seems a shame, somehow. Maybe LV will start selling little plastic cylinders that slip over your finger and allow bloodless guiding of sharp edged chisels?

:-) Miles

Re: "Charlesworth Bench"

Miles

>ANOTHER thought on this thread... vice positioning. Another 'old dog' of a question.

Having carefully cut out the necessary notches in my apron to fit a modest Record vice, it was of course disappointing to turn over the benchtop and realise that, yes, I had placed it on the WRONG END by working upside down..... oh dear, what about all those books explaining that right handers placed the vice at the left end for all sorts of good reasons. Obviously, this bench was going to be spoilt to some extent.... or perhaps not? In pondering the possible effects of having a right-hand end vice for a right hander, planing away from it rather than towards it, it occurred to me that there may be some advantages, not unlike those of the Japanese who pull rather than push saws and planes. In using this arrangement, the start of the planing stroke is at the end held firmly in the vice, where the uncertainty of plane position & 'feel' is greatest. Once the stroke has got going, one is then planing a board 'in tension' so it naturally stays straight and can just rest on a support below. No tendency to bow as there would be when pushing towards a stop at the far end (maybe an issue with long thin stock).

I think this is quite an interesting question - it's not practical to have a situation like this when planing against a bench dog, or similar stop, but there the work is supported by the surface anyway. For working on board edges, it might be rather nice to start with the solidly held end rather than the floppy end. I guess I'll find out before handing this 'innovation' back to my pa.

What do you all think?

Miles

Re: "Charlesworth Bench"

David Charlesworth

>Miles,

As suggested, I use a very fine ceramic slipstone to remove the sharpness from the corners.

However I start about 3/8" back from the edge. Do least work here and more towards the handle end of the blade.

This way the corners of the edge are not compromised, and I do not cut myself as the fingers don't grip that close to the edge.

I think your vice on r/h end will be fine, if unusual! When left handed students work here they seem to manage without undue difficulty.

When edge planing the far end of my boards are rigidly held by that clamp across the front slab, so no wobble. This is possible because my vice cheek is the front edge of the bench and everything is square.

best wishes,

David

Re: "Charlesworth Bench"

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>All you really have to do is keep your fingers away from the edges, which, if sharp, help your chisel cut better, separate the shavings from the body. So, hold chisels on the front and back, not the sides.

Pam