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Wonder why your dovetails joints don't fit?

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Wonder why your dovetails joints don't fit?

#1

Wonder why your dovetails joints don't fit?

Denis Ch�nard, Orl�ans, Ont.

>You've labored to get a through dovetail joint together, measuring, marking, sawing, chopping and trimming. You then put the joint together only to find that there are a few gaps here and there. AARRRGGGGHHH! You kick yourself in the rear end at your ineptitude and ask aloud "why can't I make a tight dovetail joint?!!?!?!?!??!"

The answer is easy. It's because the odds are stacked way against you...

WARNING: some math ahead

Let's take a joint with n tails. Each of the pins and the tails need two cuts to define the shape, which gives us 4n as the number of cuts. Then there's the issue of cutting/chopping the baseline in each socket. There are 2n+1 of these (draw one joint to help visualize the whole thing).

Now, each and everyone of these operations can go wrong. Therefore the expectation of the number of bad cuts is equal to:

(6n + 1) * "error rate"

So for a joint with three tails, that gives 19 operations, and if you miss once every 10 cutting or paring operations, you can expect on average to have two nearly bad cuts per joint, and a probablilty of 13.5% of nailing the joint perfectly.

With six tails, the expectation of failed cuts jumps to 3.7 per joint, and the probability of nailing the joint goes down to 2.0%.

I've been working recently on a carcasse that had nine tails at each corner, in this case expectation comes to 5.5 failed cuts and the probablilty of a perfect joint falls to 0.3%.

So if you cut your dovetails without measuring, minimal marking, no trimming and no test-fitting, like Frank Klausz does, give yourself a rousing round of applause if you can put a gap-free joint together!

Take heart, this was the worst case scenario...

In practice, the second part of joint is fitted to the first, and you can mark your joints, test whether the cuts are straight and fix (pare) them if they're not, to make the first part of the joint perfect (which we'll assume here). The number of cuts then falls to (n still being the number of tails in one joint) (4n + 1) (2n + 2n + 1, as I'm still allowing mistakes at the baseline) instead of 6n + 1.

Under this scenario a three tail joint would have 1.3 bad cuts on average and a 25.4% probability of a perfect joint, a six tail joint would rate at 2.5 bad cuts and 7.2% chance of success, and a nine tail joint would be 3.7 misses and 2.0% of nailing it.

With practice you get better at cutting and paring the joints. Let's say that you've progressed to the point where you screw up one cutting or paring operation out of every hundred attempts. Then for three tail you would get a 87.8% probability of a perfect joint, 77.8% for the six tail joint and 68.9% for the nine tails.

Then there's a few "cheats" one can use. Glue will swell up the pins and tails a bit and help hide small gaps. If one leaves the second part of the joint a bit fat, the mating parts will compress together and help hide more gaps (but there's a risk of splitting one of the boards). I don't have a figure for this, but this will help boost the success rate.

BTW, the results are the same whether one does through or half-blind dovetails.

Morale of this story:

- No wonder there are gazillions of dovetail jigs on the market

- Don't be too hard on yourself if a dovetail joint isn't immaculate...

- Practice makes perfect

I believe the math to be accurate, if I screwed up somewhere please let me know...

DC

Re: Wonder why your dovetails joints don't fit?

#2

Actually ...

Paul Kierstead

>I have found several times that it didn't fit too well because it was the wrong two pieces. Or at least one piece was the wrong one. Ok, you know what I mean.

Another cause is that one piece was flipped over. You tap it all togather... then ... wth??? Since with did a box zig-zag???

Sigh

Re: Wonder why your dovetails joints don't fit?

#3

Re: Actually ...

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>Yeah, that's easy to do, which is why I mark all the pieces with joint numbers and connecting marks.

Pam

Re: Wonder why your dovetails joints don't fit?

#4

Re: Klausz and DTs ****

mikew

>Hi Denis--reading that made my head hurt! But then, math and I never really got along well...You put a lot of thought into that post.

You mention Klausz. Last year or the year before when PopWood [?] had his article on the whole lack of measuring/marking thing, I walked out into the shop, grabbed two boards, one Mahogany and one Pine. Neither of the boards had been prepped.

I used the long grain edge of the Pine board for the tails. I would have used the end of the Pine board, but I was too lazy to cut the ends off which had a bunch of saw kerfs in it.

The method worked well enough. I suspect had the joint been finished off it would have looked fine. It has pluses and minuses in its madness. One plus is it is simply a good excercise. Another is the freedom to "just" do them. I also think that one needs to have a better sense of what they desire in the way of size and number of pins and the confidence it will look as expected, else the look can be as bad as this test board...


Take care, Mike

Re: Wonder why your dovetails joints don't fit?

#5

Re: Klausz and DTs ****

Dean J in MN

>Mike has a good point. The freedom of just doing it. I realize the original post was made with a sense of humor; however, you'll never learn to ride a bike of you don't take off the training wheels. Yes, you'll fall, and you'll skin your knee now and then. I know I do all the time.

Another point to keep in mind, not every DT joint need be 100% perfect. You can have a little slop and still have a fine joint. I enjoy poking around in the musuem, looking at joinery. Some are perfect, then I look at the top of the cases... Those DTs have a little more "freedom" in them. I'm not sure how DTs climbed from a way of joining wood to an almost singular mark of execellence. We've all seen folks pull open a drawer and point out the DTs -- Nevermind the rest of the joinery, or lack there of.

A little Wabi-sabi in your DTs is OK by me.

-Dean

Re: Wonder why your dovetails joints don't fit?

#6

LOL... Denis!! You're killing me MAN! ;-)

HC Sakman

>When I read "warning some math ahead" I thought to myself, "must be geometrical, but why the warning???" Then I saw... wow! You tend to dig yourself into deep holes mon cher ami. Life is too short for that!

Chico...

Re: Wonder why your dovetails joints don't fit?

#7

Heavy, man, sounds like I need another joint.

Phil Joines Krum, Tx

>

Re: Wonder why your dovetails joints don't fit?

#8

Re: Wonder why your dovetails joints don't fit?

Moses Yoder in White Pigeon, MI

>I see this as one of the problems of the information age; there is too much information and not enough age ;) Really, if you think about it, it does not matter in the least bit if there are "some gaps" in your dovetail joints. The only problem comes when you are trying to wow people with your skill and find out your skill does not have that much wow.

Re: Wonder why your dovetails joints don't fit?

#9

Re: Wonder why your dovetails joints don't fit?

Philip Duffy

>So, all the math aside, why not just fill it all in with poly-glue and make believe you did it right the first time!! (Grinning all the way to the coffee cup)Phil

Re: Wonder why your dovetails joints don't fit?

#10

The better the fit the stronger the joint. Right?

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>

Re: Wonder why your dovetails joints don't fit?

#11

Of course...

Dan Donaldson

>I have heard that mathematically, a bumblebee cannot fly, but he doesn't know that, so does it anyway ;-)

(may be an urban legend, but makes a good story ;-))

Re: Wonder why your dovetails joints don't fit?

#12

"i"

John in New Mexico

>Kind of like imaginary numbers. The need for them has always made me suspect that algebra has a hole or two when it comes to describing some aspects of physical reality. Unfortunately the whole thing makes my head hurt!

John

Re: Wonder why your dovetails joints don't fit?

#13

Re: "i"

Dan Donaldson

>It is too bad that they got the name "imaginary" numbers, because they really aren't "imaginary". A better description is "complex" numbers. They really do apply to reality ;-)

Re: Wonder why your dovetails joints don't fit?

#14

Well, I remain unconvinced...

John in New Mexico

>Though I realize I'm in the minority. As I remember, i is the imaginary component of a complex number and is eventually canceled out in the solution. Like probabilities, its the sort of math that I can follow when taking a class or something, but quickly loose comprehension of once its no longer needed (by me that is) ;).

John

Re: Wonder why your dovetails joints don't fit?

#15

Re: Theory of DovetailAbility

Norman (Ottawa, Ont.)

>Denis,

Is there some way you can string all the elements together

to create a formula with the name:

Theory of DovetailAbility

I'm sure Einstein won't mind :)

Norman

Re: Wonder why your dovetails joints don't fit?

#16

Re: Theory of DovetailAbility

Dan Donaldson

>How about E=QD where E= experience and QD =quality of dovetails ;-)

Re: Wonder why your dovetails joints don't fit?

#17

Re: Ball retrievers

thomd

>1) it takes longer to patch them than to cut them right in the first place;

2)If you can actually cut them well enough except for a few gaps, then you are already skilled enough to make the joint well enough that it looks perfect and has maximum strength, there is just a small goof factor left that should be easy to sort out. And part of that problem can be the attitude that comes from having wood filler in one hand and the saw in the other. When I started golf I used to get about as exited about the design of better ball retrievers as any other piece of golf gear. After a while I realized that wasn't really helping my game...

3)The proper method of putting the joint to bed already covers up a multitude of micro sins, so if there is a crack that is big enough it needs to be filled maybe it realy isn't good enough, assuming you know how to put them to bed.

Sure that is somewhat contradictory to the above advice that if you just have a small crack you're probably nearly good to go, but people's ideas of a little flaw vary widely. I remember I was teaching the Leigh jig. And there were two guys who came from a cabinet shop who were only there for the Leigh part of the workshop. They didn't udnerstand the way the Leigh allows one to adjust the join tightness, and if the joints are loose with that thing, then they are loose all over. So presumably they were sending out globaly loose dovetail joints, and nobody in the shop thought there was enough wrong to worry about it, Except they were at the seminar...

Re: Wonder why your dovetails joints don't fit?

#18

Re: Theory of DovetailAbility

Todd O. Cronkhite Maine Native, Presently Away

>I like that!

Todd O.

👍 This page answered my questions

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