>Got hooked on Japanese chisels after using my dovetail chisels purchased at LV. Now thinking about getting a few bench chisels, and the array of makers, types and styles of chisels is overwhelming...
From various sources I heard that Tasai might make the best chisels out there:
Although the sword steel chisels are even more expensive than Tasai (looking at bench or "finish" chisels)
I was wondering if anyone has managed to compare these chisels, or found other brands equally good. I'm not interested in ornementation, just a very hard, very tough chisel, at a good price.
Comments/suggestions?
And a loaded question, how would these chisels compare with say, LN's socket chisels?
>I have bought a few Japanese chisels that were sub standard, the Lee Valley set of 10 circa 1980 (A lot of their chisels of that era were very good Iyoroi), The basic priced ones Japan Woodworker sells.
I have a bunch of chisels that are excellent, among these are some cheapish chisels, and some very high end Ouchii. The only ones that seem on another level are the Tasai. I have 10 or twelve of them, a push chisel set, and some mortising chisels.
My only sober warning about the Tasai chisels is the ones I have seen, that are extra fancy general stock, are often seconds, by any measure. Huge 5 degree misalignments. I went through every chisels Harrelson had in the store, on display, which is a pretty huge number, over several days. There were tourist sets and only a few users, in the plain brown wrapping. Part of my desire was to finally get a set of boxwood chisels, a wood I really like, though it's not right for a hooped chisel. You know what it's like when you have coveted something for 20 years and you finally have the cash in your pocket... I ended up with a very plain set of chisels, for good reason. That is not the way the Ouchiis were sold, the bogus handled ones are just as neat as the rest, I have a mixture of Macassar and white oak. Maybe it was just a fluke on the Tasai, like a new staff person on handles. Nothing to do with Harelso, I;d buy form him any day. It taught me a lesson though.
I think someone else on the board got some tourist chisels they had to return, from a different source. Not sure the brand - OK checked my email they were not Tasai, so the problem is pretty wide
I also had the tourist problem with some Dick chisels that had Sandalwood handles, at the time there wasn't an alternative handle in the ones I bought. There are massive forging problems in the blades on the smaller chisels. I figured I could deal with it since I am well past the chisel abuse phase, and never pry a cut (though some Japanese do pry or maybe a better term would be "lift" chips).
By "tourist" I mean they don't really respect us and see us as people just grazing through the culture, half understanding it. I bought a sushi book the other day, seems very good. The western chef in question seems very qualified. She partnered with a very good guy in the restaurant business. Her restaurant is called "Feng Sushi". Hmm, that's either as offensive an idea/name as I think it is, or I'm too stupid to know, or both. See the problem? I thnk the positive way to spin this stuff is "Fusion". On the other hand that may not be the reason for the chisel problem though anyone who has handled blue steel chisels in a fancy box with shark skin covered handles and epoxied on hoops, might be entitled to a little smile.
Oh, right, short answer: Tasai chisels are a good thing.
I'm probably not qualified to give an opinion on this topic, but that's never stopped me before, so here goes.
I have several diferent kinds of Japanese chisels: a nice collection of blue steel Matsumura cabinet chisels from The Japan Woodworker, several "dovetail" chisels from Highland Hardware, and, my most recent acquisitons, four Imai sword steel chisels from Misugi Designs (one bench chisel and 3 triangular slicks). I've been pleased with all of them. I'm sure there are poor quality Japanese chisels - I've owned some that found their way into the trash with a few expletives to hurry them along. I believe you get what you pay for. Buy good chisels from a reputable maker and they will serve you well. At some point "good" gets tangled up with "esoteric," and the level of quality of really fine chisels gets lost on an average woodworker like me. I spent big bucks on my new Imai sword steel chisels and they are truly beautiful. I enjoy owning them and I hope some day to be able to appreciate how really wonderful they are. But right now, today, I can't tell the difference in the performance between my Matsumuras and the fancy Imais.
>I bought my first Japanese chisels earlier this year. I decided to go with the regular Imai chisels, not the sword steel ones. From various sources, it looks like the Tasai wood grain/Imai sword steel, and any other "fancy" Japanese chisel is better only from an aesthetics standpoint. There's nothing about the wood grain look that improves the performance of the chisel per se.
One thing to consider, though, is that for the Imai chisels, if you order the sword steels, the chisel can be customized for you. I learned from Wiley Horne about his Imai triangle (dovetail) slicks that have a bit of an increased side bevel compared to the regular triangle slicks. When I placed my order with Misugi Designs, I asked about this, and was told that such customization could be done with the sword steel chisels, but not the regular ones. I decided to go with the regular triangle slicks, figuring that I could modify the chisel later if I wanted to. So far, I haven't wanted to. I just love using these chisels.
The main reason I went with the Imai chisels as opposed to the regular Tasai chisels was that for the non-fancy versions, the Tasai chisels went for $30-50 more than the Imai equivalents, and basically were out of my budget. I'm sure that the Tasai chisels are excellent chisels as well. I can say that the customer service from Misugi Designs is right up there with the best experiences I've ever had.
So I guess my short answer is that the regular Tasai or Imai chisels are worth it. But probably not the Tasai wood grain or the Imai sword steel, unless the look of the chisel is worth the price difference to you, or if you are looking to have something custom made.
By the way, in case you think that I'm some sort of utilitarian tool snob, one of the first things I'm going to do if I win the lottery is to replace my Imai chisels with sword steel versions. :@)
>I don't know. I was blown away by the prices on the 'top end' of the chisel offerings at Japan Woodworker. And I don't generally blanch too easily at tool purchases. There are only about thirty handplanes in the tool cabinet, so you can see, I'm still a youngster.
I spent the $300 on the LN chisels, plus another $50 on a mortising chisel from them. No problems whatsoever. Sharp, strong, beautiful. And domestic, not that _that_ is a defining factor. But like the other fellow said, at some point, it gets really esoteric. That line differs for each addict, I guess.
>I strongly recommend that you get a single Tasai ultra thin push chisel, in a size that suits your work. I think tools are naturally very attractive from an aesthetic sense, so don't need the extra eye candy offered by the mokume versions; but then I'm strongly attracted to structure. Your mileage may vary.
I also have Japanese chisels from Imai (Fujihiro at Hida) and Funahiro that are excellent; but it's the Tasai that make me feel masterful, regardless of how much an illusion that is. There's something about them that allows me to mind meld with the tool and the work.
BTW, after a few years buying tools I've discovered that I don't need a set of bench chisels. Once I had all the paring and mortising chisels I could use, I never used the bench versions. Now I do have a 6-chisel set of Two Cherries bench chisels that I occasionally use, mainly because they're in a nice box readily available and they are very good chisels.
I mistakenly bought a 12-chisel set of Japanese bench chisels from Woodcraft first thing for just the reason you state: the choice was overwhelming, so I put my foot down in the circle just so I could stop turning in circles. Honestly, this may have been necessary, but now I don't need that set.
>Pam, on the thin Tasai push chisels, if you compare that to a standard Tasai chisel, are both the hard and soft steel layers thinner, or is the thickness of the hard steel layer the same, and just the backing soft steel thinned down?
>There are a couple of different models, but the very thinnest are about 3 mm or around the thickness of the hard steel on the larger ones, so my reconllection is both layers are thinner. A lot like a western plane blade in thickness. What Pam said about her push chisels is very similar to what I feel about mine. Every other tool I have seems to require skill this one is like cutting with a laser, or something, and I don't know why it's different. I doubt it's the thin chisel though because the fat ones are amazing also.
Well I still feel like a novice at this myself, but I took the Japanese chisel plunge not quite a year ago.
My first set of Japanese chisels were inspired after a visit to Konrad's shop last December. He showed me a set he got from Misugi design, made by Imai. I was sold and after some wonderful emails on the topic from Wiley I felt confident to make the purchase. These were also customized as were Konrad's and Wile's. After a summer of working with them I went ahead and sold off my Two Cherries and replaced them with bench chisels also from Imai. I am equally happy with them and I can tell you the serviceI have recieved from Kayoko has been very special.
I have looked at the Tasai chisels in the catolog, I may own a few some day.
I also have two older Japanese chisels from LV, they have been very good....
I have a few more paring slicks on order...I am very excited about how my work feels in my hand now, this has been a major change in the way I work at my bench, expensive, but worth it for me.
Congratulations on the LV chisel performance. It'll be interesting to see whether they will do as well as any others!
I have a number each of Tasai, Imai sword steel, and Funahiro genju chisels, and have a few anecdotal thoughts on them. But first would like to say that I have never heard anything but good words about the Matsumura chisels--and this is going way back into Badger Pond days. People that have them, like them. Huge numbers of people love vintage steel, and same with TLN's chisels. Really, when you're in the realm of $100-$300 each chisels, it's kinda like 'what does it take to make you happy?' Whether it's worth it is kinda by the boards at that point.
By the way, the hottest name last time I looked around was Ichihiro, but I have no experience of those. Hot names are like fads, at least in my memory. Imai was really hot; Tasai then got really hot a few years ago; Funahiro then got really hot; then Ichihiro. It's like winds blowing through. They're all great tools.
It comes down to what you want in an expensive tool. For example, what I want in an expensive tool is a tool that I can spec, and a relationship with the maker--I want the maker to make the tool for me, not as part of a shipment to a broker, where all he knows is that he's got a lot of two-dozen chisels or whatever to make for the broker. So I've gotten away from tools which come to me through a Japanese broker and then a US retailer. There are some exceptions--for example, a Tasai very-thin will go where most other chisels won't go, and everybody needs a 12 or 15mm very-thin (or equivalent) IMO. I totally agree with Pam on that. Similarly, Funahiro's slicks have more hand relief than the other makers--and IMO a 30-36mm Funahiro slick is incredibly useful, and everybody needs one of them (or similar).
But for my everyday planes, saws, and chisels, if it's an expensive tool, I would like to spec it, and have it come from the maker's house to my house, with his handwriting on the package, and the chisel, plane, or saw made to order. And I write them thank you notes back. That's how I end up with Imai sword steel chisels. For example, I use them for dovetails, and want the sizes to be every 1.5mm up to 12mm, and with sidewalls tapered inward at 7-8 degrees. Imai-san has no problem making the in-between 4.5mm and 7.5mm sizes and putting on the sidewall taper. (Of course anyone can add any sidewall taper they want to a straight sided chisel, but we're talking expensive tools so I want them to arrive custom). They're ordered through Kayoko at Misugi Designs, and she gives him the specs, and most of the time they arrive direct from Chutaro-san to my front porch. I can't judge toughness from the paring chisels, but the mortise chisels are incredibly tough for such a hard chisel, and do just fine with a hollow grind at 25 degrees, and a less-than-30-degree hone, and no babying.
You may well be able to order custom specs from Tasai-san, and I suggest asking Harrelson about it if there is something particular you want. I know that Pam ordered a custom Tasai fishtail (I think through Iida-san, www.japantool-iida.com), and Hap should be able to do the same since he has on-going dealings with Tasai. By the way, Iida is a terrific guy, (has excellent English, too), and I strongly recommend him, with much thanks to Pam for the intro.
>You may well be able to order custom specs from Tasai-san, and I suggest asking Harrelson about it if there is something particular you want. I know that Pam ordered a custom Tasai fishtail (I think through Iida-san, www.japantool-iida.com), and Hap should be able to do the same since he has on-going dealings with Tasai. By the way, Iida is a terrific guy, (has excellent English, too), and I strongly recommend him, with much thanks to Pam for the intro.
You're welcome, Wiley. I had dealt with Iida-san on ebay for a year or two when he opened his online store, not connected with ebay. I'd purchased a special Tasai plane called "On" from him (the tool steel is forged with wave shapes on both the main and sub- blades). We were exchanging emails about something or other when he mentioned that Michio was going to be in the shop the next day. I'd determined that a bachi nomi would probably be perfect for half blind dovetails, but hadn't been able to find anything smaller than 1/2". Things worked out from there. I would be more than happy to place special orders through Harrelson as well if I ever need to again. I certainly wouldn't want to infer any unhappiness with any of the Japanese tool vendors, nor did you imply any.
I don't feel the need to communicate directly with a manufacturer, particularly in this case since I don't speak Japanese; but it's usually pleasant when it happens. I loved Inomoto-san's dai making course, getting to know him, talking with Bill Carter and Larry Williams, talking with Tasai-san through Iida-san, and the like. OTOH, I got no real pleasure from meeting Yataiki (Miyano dai Endo), who dismissed me on sight; but Kayoko and all the other guys in that seminar were great.
In the case of the Tasai bachi nomi, it turned out not even being to my spec except for the 3/8" (about 9.5mm) width. It was really funny. I sent Iida-san my spec, which was for a 6" long chisel and maybe something else. Iida-san and Tasai-san in turn asked how long I wanted the handle. I said something, but was sure to say that Tasai-san probably knew a lot more about how such a chisel should be configured, that I'd go with his advice. I got an 8" chisel, which is indeed perfect for the application. :)
>I don't know, Wilbur, and that chisel is still packed up waiting for the ghostly new workshop; but I'd suspect that some proportional relationship still holds. IIRC, the soft steel layer is substantially thinner.
>I have two imai sword steel chisels chisels and htey really hold up to tropical wood use. I abuse them but they keep on going. the handles can be a bit brittle when you put the ring on but after that not a big deal.
With all the comments made so far, I feel like trying one or two regular Imai and a couple Tasai. Pam, the Tasai thin push chisel looks very attractive, I'll keep that one in mind. Oh, the slippery slope...
I have a few more questions...
Does anyone make shorter chisels? I like the control a shorter chisel gives me. 5" seems like the size I'd like.
Choice of handle wood: is there a technical reason to choose a species or another, or does it boil down to (apologies for the potential sacrilege) what color you like? I know that ebony handles shouldn't be struck, but beyond that I'm clueless...
Is there a lot of "fettling" to be done on these (Imai, Tasai) chisels? I remember reading long ago that Japanese chisels aren't ready out of the box, that the hoop needs to be seated and the handle end mushroomed, is it still the case?
Finally, does anyone have problems with using metric sized chisels? I have no issue with metric, but since all my other tools are imperial sized, does that cause a problem?
I can answer a few questions... The Tasai chisels come fully set up and sharpened. No need even to hone.
From what I gather, red and white oak handles are the toughest (Japanese red oak is a live oak, from what I've heard). I ordered boxwood because it's my favorite wood, but it's significantly more expensive. Boxwood is OK for bench chisels though, maybe not for mortise chisels. For push chisels I don't think it makes a difference what wood you choose.
I saw some miniature Japanese chisels on one of the sites I gave you the other day. But the Tasai cabinet chisels are quite small and dainty. I can give you a measurement tonight (around 8 1/2" I believe, still longer than what you might want).
For metric sizes I like them because you can nicely get into a 1/2" slot or mortise with a 12mm chisel (for example)...they work out to just a smidgeon less than imperial measurements which is perfect for me. It might cause minor problems if you want to mortise inside an imperial groove if you use plow planes or power tools. Others will surely be able to comment.
>I got a gumi (Japanese boxwood) handle on my Tasai ultrathin, and love it; but all my other Japanese chisels have Japanese oak handles, red or white. Harrelson sells some very short Shizutani mini chisels, over which I've been drooling for years, they're even more seductive in person; but, alas, I've always had more pressing needs.
What Frank said about fettling and Tasai, and also what he said about metric. It's never been a problem, but I'm trying to move to an all metric shop, find it much easier than working in fractions of inches. I've even thinking of conforming the imperial plow blades and the like to metric one of these years.
>My regular Imai chisels were pretty sharp right out of the box. I did spend a little time honing them to see what kind of an edge I could get on them, but it only took me the same amount of time that I would have spent on any other resharpening.
Hammering the handle end of the chisel so that it mushrooms around the ring took a little more work, but I don't have anyone around here that could show me how to do it directly. I did manage to figure out how to do it, though.
The handles on my chisels are red oak, I think. I didn't look into getting any other type of wood.
After reading some older posts by Wiley and Pam, and some emails, I wound up passing on the bench chisels for the most part. I wound up buying a 6 mm mortise chisel, a 6 and 12 mm triangular push chisels for paring, and a 3 mm bench chisel. The 3 mm chisel is narrow enough that there doesn't seem to be much difference between it and the 3 mm paring or mortise chisels. I had thought about a 3 mm paring chisel, but Kayoko at Misugi Designs talked me out of it.
So far the metric issue hasn't really bothered me. I can't think of a situation where the metric/imperial mix would get me in trouble. Chopping a mortise in the bottom of a groove that is 1/4" wide with a 6 mm chisel is still doable. It would be harder if the chisel was 7 mm wide.
I don't think you'll go wrong with either the Imai or the Tasai chisels. It's kind of like trying to choose between a Lie Nielsen or Lee Valley plane -- a win-win situation.
>The Tasai chisels I got needed sharpening but there wasn't a thick layer to be taken off the back.
I think one does need to be careful about assumptions about what one "gets". There are at least half a dozen maybe a dozen credible supplies these days, and I think it is up to them to specify how and what the chisels they sell look like. Of a store wants to get them fully fettled or with a certain grade of steel or handles that seems to be normal varaition.
There is a reason to buy certain handle woods over others. Appart from the fact that some makers don't put their best eforts into some woods, the process of mushrooming over the handle wood, and how it stands up to a beating is pretty variable. The best wood is also the least pretty, White Oak. Red Oak is similar but more crumbly. It has the durability and plasticity and fibrousnous to stand up to long term use of a hamemer, on the other hand if you use a rubber mallet or something, you can have chisel handles that look like they have never been used, so that is a factor also. Want to use a bronze carver's hammer, it can nock divots out of some woods.
There is a huge upcharge phenomenon in chisel handles. Maccsar ebony is knowhere near that expensive. Maybe 50 bucks for a set of chisels, yet wood can add huge bucks to the cost of chisels.
Obviously people who use Japanese tools are not necesarilly interested in working in a Japanese way, or interested in Japanese aesthetics. It is very comon for people to have shops that have only one set of tools in them, but blend together infill planes and japanese chisels. So the infills have ebony funriture, why not the chisels? But just in case a person is interested in japanese aesthetics etc... The Japanese like harmonious wood with good grain, that has strength and integrity to it. Their tradition didn't more as far as ours had to the point where the good wood that is features in panels etc... is the most mixed up crap on the lot. You know, the kind of stuff you find bulldozered off to the side of the lot in your local mill. So in the Japanese aesthetic a heart centered white oak handle with calm grain and colour, good structure etc... is both practical and beautiful. Absolutely not to say that we should feel the same way about it. Just like there are tours from Japan snapping up the plaid kimonoes at Banff Springs plaid shop that opens only for them.
>Those Shizutani chisels are exactly what I'd like to have, but man, are they ever expensive! They better be darn good... Wonder if one can get them in dovetail instead of finish shape?
I'll have to call Harrelson to find out...
Not sure if I should thank you, you're killing my wallet! :-)
>My guess is they don't come in shinogi. Remember, you can buy just one or two. I don't think you save all that much by buying a set, although those little boxes are cool.
As to your wallet, discipline is hard to come by, even if you did want it. :)