WoodCentral Forums

Est. 1998 — 27 years of woodworking knowledge

Shapton Flattening Plate ETC...

Posts

Shapton Flattening Plate ETC...

#1

Jack Guzman from Maine

Shapton Flattening Plate ETC...

Jack Guzman from Maine

>I went to the Wood Works show in Portland yesterday.I just did a quick run through.The weather was getting pretty nasty and I didn't want to get caught in high winds/driving rain on the freeway so I cut it short.

I stopped at a booth of a company called Japasnese Tools.com.This guy was sharpening a pocketknife with a series of shapton ceramic stones.I would love to have some of these to try but the cost keeps me using my King and Norton stones.I noticed what had to be a flattening plate so I asked about it.The guy told me it cost $259.

That floored me.I exaggerated in response and told him I used a cinder block.From the look he gave me I gather he wasn't impressed.

Actually I use a flattening plate I got from Woodcraft that I in turn flatten on a cinder block occasionally.I didn't mean to insult the guy but I think he might have taken my remark wrong.

It was a short visit so I never met any other WC posters. I had a short chat with Jonathan Frank who puts on the show and is a friend of Ellis and got to watch Frank Klausz chop some dovetails.Also Clarence Blanchard had a great selection of used woodworking tools.I wish I could have stayed longer.---Next year.---Jack

Re: Shapton Flattening Plate ETC...

#2

Re: Shapton Flattening Plate ETC...

Moses Yoder in White Pigeon, MI

>The cost of the shapton flattening plate was the main reason I went with Norton water stones. It seems strange that you can buy a very good complete plane for 2-3 hundred dollars and that one simple plate costs that much. I flatten my water stones with sandpaper. I was very impressed wtih the shaptons at one time, but I think I get an edge that is just as good or better with my water stones.

Re: Shapton Flattening Plate ETC...

#3

Re: Shapton Flattening Plate ETC...

Todd O. Cronkhite Maine Native, Presently Away

>Now Jack, don't get all bam-boozled over flash and glam gizmos. cinder blocks and oil stones should be all you need to get up a perfectly useable edge. I know, I've been there, it's easy to get get all "caught up" in the heady feeling of of the latest whiz-bang toy, you just gotta fight it man! coarse, when they put astronomical prices on that stuff, it makes the fight so much easier to win.

Save your $$$ and buy yourself a goodie from Tom for Christmas.

Was the Dubby guy there? I wanted a Dubby so badly, but choked on the price. I've seened them demo's twice at WWing shows, and still resisted. Now, I don't want one as it won't work on my miter box.

Ta' heck with the big $$$ gizmos.

Todd O.

Who's now lusting for a LN#6 type 1 to fill in a hole.

(Do LN's count as a flash and glam gizmo? I think not, but than again ,they ain't cheap and a vintage model works quite well. Guess we can't win all our "fights" eh?);~)

Re: Shapton Flattening Plate ETC...

#4

Jack Guzman from Maine

Dubby?

Jack Guzman from Maine

>Todd,

I don't have a clue what a dubby is. There was a guy selling plastic gizmos for cutting perfect crown molding every time but I don't know what he called them.---Jack

Re: Shapton Flattening Plate ETC...

#5

Different strokes (no pun intended)

wilbur

>For the Shapton stones you don't need the $259 flattening plate. There's a compact lapping plate that works with the Professional series stones that goes for $129.

Last year at a woodworking show I bought the compact lapping plate, and a set of the Shapton Professional stones (1000, 5000, 8000) for about $320 altogether with a show discount. That is on the pricey side for a sharpening system. The new GlassStones, which is what I think Jack saw, would go for about $470 for an equivalent set. I figure that this expense was balanced out by being able to buy beater second hand planes (both Western and Japanese) that after sharpening are giving me results as good as my neighbor's Lie-Nielsens.

One other way to look at the flattening plate is that if they are made to a tolerance of a few microns, then that is at least a level of engineering equivalent to that of high end planes.

So I guess it just depends on where you feel like dropping your money. Many paths to the same destination.

Re: Shapton Flattening Plate ETC...

#6

Re: Was that Harelson in Portland?

arw01

>He is here in Spokane, WA on Halloween night. I'm not missing my kids trick-or-treating.

Cosman does just dandy with the Nortons. I bought the Shaptons because you don't need to soak them, I always wonder what if, and I figured the would very well last me the rest of my life or a HUGE percentage of it.

I want to add a 120 or 220 grit to my collection.

For flattening I use a diasharp diamond plate bought for about $70.00

Alan

Re: Shapton Flattening Plate ETC...

#7

Re: Was that Harelson in Portland?

Hub in Ontario

>FYI - I saw Cosman at the Woodstock show and he was using the Shapton's. When I said to him about the switch to these he was almost appologetic that he was using them especially when I reminded him that he talked me into the Norton's.

Hub

Remove 7 for e-mail

Re: Shapton Flattening Plate ETC...

#8

Re: Flattening

Jim Brown

>I have a Norton 220 diamond stone. Any problems with using it to flatten a couple Shaptons I have? Also don't want to ruin either if I did this.

Re: Shapton Flattening Plate ETC...

#9

Re: Was that Harelson in Portland?

steve knight

>I use one of the huge diamnond stones to flatten my shapton hippo stones. I used to use the lapping plate but it is slower.

you need ot remember the shapton flattening stone is extreamly flat far flatter then anything else out there. it's flattened after the diamonds are mounted. it will hold up to flattening back of irons far longer then any other diamond stone out there too.

Re: Shapton Flattening Plate ETC...

#10

Re: Dubby? *LINK*

Todd O. Cronkhite Maine Native, Presently Away

>Jack,

the link will take you to the Dubby. Basically it is a jig for the T/S for making miters. I seen it demonstrated twice. Each time the question was asked: What number side box would you like to seen made, 5 sided, or 6, or 7, or 8 or, or or and the crowd would decide on a number. Than, a young child around ages 10-12 I guess picked out of the crowd and s/he was told to set the arm to to the number on the jig that corresponded to the nuber of side the crowd decided upon. After the child moved the arm, the demo man would tighten the knob a little more, than simply cut the sides. Both times he laid the pieces side my side on two strips of masking tape and than folded them up so the ends came together. Both times they folded up to perfection!!! Really unbelievable. the first time I saw it I stood there and watched him go thru 3 demos to see if it would mess up, and it didn't!!

Found it to be way to expensive tho. I didn't even look at the linked site to see what it's going for now, but I'm sure it's still way to much. Now, for accuracy lke this I'm sure it's worth the money--just not to me.

I will say that the pulleys and the link belt that they sell for the contractors saws are worth at least double the asking price. I bought them 14 years ago, and they turned my 1950's contractors saw into a Unisaw almost. Truly, truly, truly and remarkable difference and I'd encourage withut hesitation anybody who has a contractors saw to buy them.

Todd

No financial interest in In-Line Industries.


Dubby

Re: Shapton Flattening Plate ETC...

#11

Jack Guzman from Maine

no idea

Jack Guzman from Maine

>I couldn't tell you if that was Harrelson.I don't know what he looks like. I saw a picture of him in a magazine last night and showed my wife. I asked her if that looked like anyone at the booth and she said no.---Jack

Re: Shapton Flattening Plate ETC...

#12

Shapton Flattening Plate Perspective Long

George Bustamante

>I like Norton and Shapton stones and have sets of each along with the more expensive Shapton DLRP lapping plate. I also use 0.5-micron chromium oxide compound and diamond paste.

The Nortons are not cheap, but the Shaptons are more expensive. That said, if I were starting out, I would go with the Shaptons (and have bought Mr Lee's book on sharpening sooner). They are the better long-term value, as they stay flat longer, and wear much, much more slowly. This is a real issue for novices, as it took me forever to learn (on my own) to sharpen plane blades. Fortunately, I was not learning with Japanese tools or blades made from A2 either. The Norton 4000 stone is really nice and I like the way steel slides on it. I also think that Nortons may be better for carving tools. Shaptons are the way to go if you use A2 and other tougher alloys like S53. Keep in mind that Shapton is a system, and that system uses optically flat surfaces, which is a seriously flat standard. Since sharpening is about making the two planes defining a tool edge flat (a theoretical standard), maintaining stones as flat as possible is critical.

I used to flatten my King stones by rubbing two same grit stones together, and I did flatten the 220 grit stone on concrete. This worked fine, but I cannot imagine trying to true a Shapton stone that way. They are too hard, and the thought of concrete grit contamination on an expensive stone makes me shudder. I also tried DMT and other diamond stones (DMT) to lap my water stones and had bad luck because they were not very flat - certainly not flat like the admittedly expensive Shaptons lapping plates. This led me to try scary sharp, which worked fine. But it became obvious that scary sharp was going to cost more in the long run than going with Nortons (abrasive paper is not cheap). Then I had an epiphany (along with a large cash wind fall) and tried Shaptons. Diamond paste is also an eye opener, but that is another story.

Shapton has two lapping plates:

1) The Glass Diamond Lapping Plate has one surface for truing stones (the tolerance is plus or minus 5 microns) and costs $289.00

Diamond Reference Lapping Plate has two surfaces, one for lapping steel and the other for truing stones (the tolerance is plus or minus 3.5 micron tolerance - the DRLP is optically flat and verified by outside Japanese laboratories) and costs $489.00

Yes, this is expensive. No, it is outrageously expensive. No it is absolute madness. But the Japanese are absolutely fanatical about measuring tool standards, and the Shapton plates are flat - certified optically flat. A human hair is 100 microns in diameter, so the tolerance of Shaptons's DLRP at plus or minus 3.5 microns is incredible for an abrasive surface. There are a lot of false claims about tolerances, and a lot of crap coming from China in particular fails to live up to snuff, but when Shapton says their DLRP is flat - they mean it. And those plates flattens water stones fast, with no grit contamination, and makes them as flat as you could need.

The Shapton lapping plates work exceptionally well, and really complement the stones. It is expensive, but it is also quick, clean effective, and no nonsense. A bench, three stones, a DLRP and water - the results are phenomenal. Is it going too far? Do you need to work your tools to near optical flatness standards? Is it too expensive? It all depends on your preferences, your budget, how long you want to spend sharpening, and ultimately what you want to achieve. Shaptons will not jump off the bench and sharpen your tools for you, but if you cannot get a great edge using Shaptons, it isn't the stones.

The Shapton DLRP has been an eye opener for this wood hack.

Re: Shapton Flattening Plate ETC...

#13

Ya, but who's Shapton? *LINK* *HUMOR*

woodburnbob

>Who is Shapton? That's what I wondered. I went to the shaptonstones.com site and learned:

Nobuaki Ishida has worked for twenty years to develop a better sharpening stone for cooks and woodworkers.

That's not much information and no matter how I rearrange the letters, I can't get Shapton out of the name. At the bottom of the page I saw a HMS enterprises copyright. There's no link to HMS enterprises but there is a link for more information to HMS@japanesetools.com.

At japanesetools.com, I learned:

Hiraide Shoten was founded in 1947 by Mr. Shoou Hiraide, who died in 1982 at the age of 68. His wife, Sui, and his children, Masayoshi, Tomoyuki, Michiko and Kazuko have continued to operate the business. Masayoshi, now president of Hiraide Japan, reorganized the business in 1990.

I may be on to something here: Hiraide and Masayoshi Shoten could be a way to make sense of HMS. And, even I've heard of Hiraide America. Maybe there's a connection with Hiraide Japan. But why isn't it Shoten Japan and Shoten America rather than Hiraide? After all, it's Hilton Hotels, not Conrad Hotels.

Incidentally, on this HMS business you have to be a little discerning doing the online detective work or you'll wind up at one of the other HMS Enterprises, such as the Kansas trucking company or the software company. You can also wind up at the ship: HMS Enterprise. Actually, I kept getting HSM mixed up with HMS, until I memorized "His Magesty's Ship" as the correct mnemonic.

Oh, well, I still could not find a way to understand who was Shapton. So, on a whim I plugged the right hms enterprises into my browser and got their site: www.hmsenterprises.com/ and I'm back on track to a kind of conglomerate "Importer of Japanese Tradition". This still doesn't illuminate Shapton.

As a last gasp effort, I googled "Hiraide Japan" and found no site other than a reference to Hiraide America, which, as we've already learned is japanesetools.com. Yes, that's what I was thinking as well, it's all kind of circular.

Alas, I'll have to resort once again to a public display of my ignorance, and ask you japanese tools experts: Who is Shapton? Or, is it even a name? Could it just be a noun capitalized, in the way abstract concepts like Beauty, Justice and Evil were capitalized by some authors in past centuries? Or, perhaps it's supposed to be a capitalized verb. Oops, could it be a capitalized neologism in verb form, such as, "I'm going to Shapton my tools from now on, if I can only get enough money together".

Help me out. I may not get through the day.

Re: Shapton Flattening Plate ETC...

#14

Re: Flattening

George Bustamante

>Jim,

I would not use a Norton (or any other manufacturer) 220 grit stone to flatten anything other than a simular grit stone for fear of grit contamination.

Suppose you need to touch up a chisel, and go to work afte flattening a 1000 grit Shapton on your 220 grit Norton. After a few strokes you notice a nasty scratch on your blade because a bit of the 200 stone embedded itself in the 1000 grit stone matrix - arrrrgh!!!

Shaptons are tough, but I would not risk it.

Re: Shapton Flattening Plate ETC...

#15

Chris Scholz

Re: Shapton Flattening Plate Perspective Long

Chris Scholz

>Optically flat is usually defined as better than 1/10th of the respective wavelength. For visible light (red: 0.650micrometer) optically flat requires flatness of better than 0.065 micrometers. 3.5 micrometer might be an amazing feat for a consumer-grade steel plate and is probably more than appropriate for any woodworking related activity, but "optically flat" it is not.

I am convinced that neither JIS (Japan Institute of Standards), NIST (US National Insitute of Standards) or any other standards laboratory would certify this plate as "optically flat". Anybody know who these "outside Japanese government laboratories" are?

Re: Shapton Flattening Plate ETC...

#16

Re: Shapton Flattening Plate Perspective Long

George Bustamante

>Chris,

I do not work in the optics industry, and even though I have a strong engineering/OR background, I am not an expert in optics so please excuse me if I overstep myself.

First I don't own stock in Shapton. I got the specs from Shapton. My DLRP came with a serial number and a fancy certificate in Japanese. It could be the preferred newspaper to wrap tuna in for all I know. I know of one surgeon was playing around with the Shapton DRLP, stones and tool edges that came from those stones with some fancy lab equipment. He did not come up with anything fishy and I have faith in this individual.

Second, Your point is taken that the DLRP cannot be an “optical flat”. HMS says: “the DRLP is optically flat” – it is not the same. The 30,000 grit (yes, 30k!!! far beyond what mere mortals need) Shapton stone has an abrasive size of 0.96 micron, meaning that even if the DLRP were an optical flat, what is the point? Could it be that Shapton is at fault? Do the Japanese define “optical flatness” (I did search the NIST for this term and did not come up with anything)? Maybe HMS mistranslated the Japanese into English? Are we confusing an optical flat, which is rated at 1/4, 1/10 or 1/20 of a specified wavelength of light, with the actual measurement of “optical flatness”? I did find a company that measures “optical flatness” with deviations of up to 250,000 angstroms or 25 microns! http://www.sinclairmfg.com/datasheets/opticalflatness.htm. My understanding is that an optical flat is the reference that the unknown test subject is compared to with any deviation in flatness measured over a specified diameter being the measurement. This means that the deviations in the test subject should be greater than the specified fractional wavelength (other wise you need a better optical flat).

Third, putting this in perspective, at 3.5 microns (assuming this measurement is correct), the DLRP is substantially better than any other diamond lapping plate on the market, and puts a lot of machinists gage blocks to shame.

Forth, When my DLRP eventually wears out, I will to send it back to Japan for resurfacing. It is that good.

Re: Shapton Flattening Plate ETC...

#17

Chris Scholz

Re: Shapton Flattening Plate Perspective Long

Chris Scholz

>Good points. What I thought to be questionable advertising (an "optically flat" steel plate) might just be a translation error. Hope Shapton will correct that error in due time.

Re: Shapton Flattening Plate ETC...

#18

I found him *LINK*

Paul M. in San Diego

>Here he is... pardon my horrible spelling. ;-)


Mr Shapton

Re: Shapton Flattening Plate ETC...

#19

Re: Ya, but who's Shapton? *HUMOR*

Todd O. Cronkhite Maine Native, Presently Away

>"His Magesty's Ship"

Not to split hairs with Bob, but doesen't HMS stand for "Her Magesty's Ship"?

Coarse, I guess at various times it could be used either way, depending eho ever is currently King or Queeen.

Todd O.

Re: Shapton Flattening Plate ETC...

#20

Re: I found him

Mike L (Orange County, CA)

>I think there's a pun in there somewhere too Paul. :-)

👍 This page answered my questions

Your vote helps other woodworkers quickly find the answers and techniques that actually work in the shop.