Ncholson bench and PWW

Re: Ncholson bench and PWW *LINK*

Dean J in MN

>How about Nicholson himself describing it? :)

page (ii) has the plate of the bench.

page 87 -> has the description.

Can't get much better than that!

-Dean


Nicholson

Re: Ncholson bench and PWW

Bob Lang

>It's on the horizon, I'm going to be building it this winter. Publication is scheduled for the August issue of next year. That could move up or back by an issue or so. I'm about 85% sure of how I want to do it, trying to decide on vises and material. Structurally it will follow the historic form.

Bob Lang

George, what's unique about . . .

Tom Colligan

>. . . the Nicholson workbench. Tom

Re: George, what's unique about . . .

Bob Lang

>The predominant feature of the Nicholson is that the top is rather thin, less than 2", and it has a wide front apron. The front apron allows all sorts of clampling opportunities on the front of the bench. It was very common in the 19th century, but fell out of favor in the early 20th.

Bob Lang

Re: Ncholson bench and PWW

George Makowski

>Bob, Thanks for the quick response. I will be looking forward to the article.

George in AL

Re: George, what's unique about . . .

George Makowski

>Tom. Bob has pretty much said it, thinner top wide front board. It has noe large front vise.

I am interested becasue of the thinner top and the vise both. It seems that it would fit the way I do most of my work so I want to know more.

George in AL

Re: George, what's unique about . . .

paul womack

>The predominant feature of the Nicholson is that the top is rather thin, less than 2", and it has a wide front apron. The front apron allows all sorts of clampling opportunities on the front of the bench. It was very common in the 19th century, but fell out of favor in the early 20th.

Hmm. Interesting. Sound just like this:

bench photo and discussion on woodnet

That design came from a 1927 Stanley tools book, and is just what you're describing.

The apron also provides good resistance to racking, since all the design I've seen dado the legs into the apron.

However, a deep apron precludes clamping workpieces flat on the bench, which I like doing, so I don't like aprons.

BugBear (multi-forum guy)

Re: George, what's unique about . . .

Bob Lang

>"Early 20th" probably wasn't the best choice of words, as this bench design does show up in "how to" books and plans up through the 1920s as you point out. One of the brick walls we keep hitting when we study the history of these things is that it's hard to determine the reason something fell out of use. We ran into this when we studied holdfasts for "Woodworking", we could come close to a date when they weren't used much, but were left to guess at the reasons why.

You're absolutely right about being able to clamp down with this bench design. I'm curious to see how it will affect my style of work once I'm done with it. I think holdfasts will be essential-I've become a real fan of them in the last couple years. I'm also seriously considering a wagon vise for the end, and I've found a cool design for a pop-up stop near the front vise.

One other consideration is making the whole thing capable of being knocked down and taken apart. Some of the pictures I've seen have a dovetail connection between the apron and the legs, and I'm thinking that can be cut at a slight angle so that the top and aprons would lock into the legs so the thing could be broken down and moved.

I don't really plan on moving it a lot, but given the experience we had here with Chris' Roubo bench, it would be nice. When the Roubo was completed Mr. Schwarz said, "that thing will never be moved." It wasn't but a few weeks later that we were putting it in the back of a Toyota pickup. It fit in the bed, but the vehicle was very easy to steer.

Bob Lang

Re: George, what's unique about . . .

Dave Anderson Chester, NH

>Hi Bob, If you are going to make one of these and are planning to write an article about it I would suggest contacting the guys in the Hay cabinet shop at Colonial Williamsburg. They have extensively used these benches for many years and could give you some great insights. They are the only benches used in the cabinet shop and are even used by the musical instrument makers who work there too.

You plan to cut dovetails in face grain?

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>

Kind of

Bob Lang

>The face of the apron and the face of the leg are flush. A lot of the period illustrations I've been looking at show a half tail at the bottom of the apron. I'm thinking if I cut it at a compound angle it will lock the apron to the leg assembly both end to end and front to back. If the aprons and the top are a permanent asembly, that should drop down on to the leg assembly and hold the whole thing together. In theory anyway, and as long as the law of gravity is enforced.

Bob Lang

Re: Kind of

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>I've never tried it, but my best guess is that if there's any force pulling on that connection at all you'll eventually get leg-destroying tear out, it will pull the long grain into at least two pieces. Dovetails are end grain to end grain for a reason. Maybe if you peg it?

However, I know you know a lot more about woodworking than I, so I'm probably imagining griefs.

Pam

What's a wagon vise?

Adam Cherubini, NJ

>What's a wagon vise?

Part of the fun of the Nicholson bench is its lack of holdfast holes thru the top. I spoke to the guys in Wmsburg about this bench and reported to Chris. I hope you have that report. So the other question I have is "is the nicholson bench a cabinetmaker's bench?"

In my opinion, the real brass ring of the nicholson bench- okay, two brass rings, are:

1) Its low mass really cries out "portability"

2) The fact that it can be easily constructed of borg lumber.

One more thing (believe it or not, I have very little or no inside information) it appears to me as tho PW has "dumbed down" some designs to make them more approachable, made from commonly available lumber etc. If true, this approach may have been to the detriment of Chris' Roubo bench. I would have prefrerred to see Chris hand cut those huge DT's where the legs meet the bench top (the glue-ups didn't bother me). Because of what it is, I'd almost prefer to see the Nicholson bench treated this way as opposed to a very faithful reproduction. I think this should be the "beginners bench"; THE bench to build with lag bolts and fir 2x12's. Or maybe there should be a deeper exercise- maybe two benches and two articles- one faithful examining the work philosphies and one more practical. What do the rest of you think?

For my part, I started with this sort of bench and got frustrated with it due to my infinite ignorance and the fact that at the time, there was no one to help me. Now I'm toying with the idea of building a knock down version and I'd really like someone else to figure out the engineering and the joinery. Just please make it something I can make with hand tools!

Adam

Re: What's a wagon vise?

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>A couple or three of the benches in the Landis book are knock downs. I know I'd better watch my back, duck my head, and get ready to run before suggesting that you even look at this book; but that's my recommendation.

I like your idea of two articles, two benches.

Pam

Outstanding reference, Dean!!

Wiley Horne

>Thank you very much.

Also, the Google reference itself is kinda incredible. I had read somewhere that Google had set out to know the contents of every book in the world, but did not know that this function was operational, even at the beta level.

Wiley

Re: George, what's unique about . . .

Todd O. Cronkhite Maine Native, Presently Away

>I agree with Pam, two benches, two articles.

I for one am sick and tired of seeing "dumbed" down benches. They are a dime a dozen, and for the most part any fool can put together a " dumbed down" bench without any plans at all, as I'm sure we all have proved to ourselves at one time or another in our WWing persuits.

I certainly can't see any advantage to having such a wide apron, or for that matter any apron at all, other than perhaps for a holdfasts for use when edge planing, but a sliding board jack, or a stand alone planing jack would solve that matter.

Todd O.

I wondered about that too *LINK*

Bill Houghton, garage sales in Sebastopol, CA

>but a little googling brought me the link below.


Chris Schwartz on the wagon vise

Re: George, what's unique about . . .

Adam Cherubini, NJ

>Todd,

You probably already know this, but the apron is really what defines the nicholson bench. Thicken up the top and remove the apron and you've got the french bench, a different species. The advantage of the apron is the stiffness it lends to the front edge of the bench. Think of it like a floor joist.

Adam

Re: new name (to me)

paul womack

>for an old idea...

It's certainly in the workbench book.

And here:

http://www.just4fun.org/images/woodworking/workbench/full/DCP_1545.JPG

http://www3.sympatico.ca/claudelivernoche/etabli.html

(design from Woodsmith #50)

BugBear

dumbing down?

Bob Lang

>Adam, talk like that might get you fired!

Seriously though, this project isn't completely about making a reproduction of the Nicholson, it's about taking the concepts that led to its form and adapting them to a bench that works for today. In the end, I'll be using this bench for a long time, so it's going to be something I can live with that suits my style of work. I'm committed to the basic form, and where I digress from historic precedent I will note what I change and why.

One of the things that intrigues me about this sort of thing is trying to figure out what's important and what isn't. The material choice (and I really haven't made up my mind yet) is a good example of this. I don't think there is anything magic about the wood used. What they used "in the day" had a set of properties that made sense for the task at hand, and was also what was cheap and readily available. My choices will be made trying to hit both of those points, and I'm almost convinced that southern yellow pine makes sense. Remember that I share shop space with Chris, and he can be pretty convincing.

Like you, I'm also interested in the "knock-down" aspect. I don't see it as a travelling bench, but it would be nice to break it down into units of top, leg assemblies and stretchers so that it would be easier to move than the Roubo.

As far as making two goes, we'll think about it and see where it leads us. One of my long-range (next year or two) plans is to do another article about basic benches that likely will contain stuff that I learn from building and using the Nicholson.

Bob Lang

What's the origin of the term?

Bill Houghton, garage sales in Sebastopol, CA

>A little googling leaves me no wiser about why it's a wagon vise, as opposed to any other name of vise. How did it acquire this name?

Re: What's the origin of the term?

Bob Lang

>I wish I knew. The reference we have here is a French tool catalog from about 1927, that was reprinted by the Mid-West Tool Collector's Association. (Feron & Cie is the name of the French Company).

I was intrigued by it because it suits the way I work; I rarely secure anything in an end vise, but I use it with bench dogs all the time. The wagon vise is basically a screw in the right front corner of the bench with a dog attached to it. From the illustrations, it looks like the dog is removable so you could have a flat surface at that corner if it ever got in the way. Chris retrofitted his Roubo bench with this, and I think it's a great idea, inexpensive, simple and does all I need it to do.

The French term in the catalog is "Presse a Chariot". It's been a long time since high school French class, so my knowledge of the language is very limited. It seems to me though that the term is descriptive and not possessive. Other vises in the catalog that were for specific trades or functions have a different structure in the phrasing, so I think the term "wagon" has to do with the way the thing works, not that there was some specific wagonmaking task that it was suited for.

I can't think of another reference off the top of my head, and if anyone else knows about this I'd be grateful to know.

Bob Lang

So if you'd wanted to...

Bill Houghton, garage sales in Sebastopol, CA

>you could have called it a "chariot vise," and cooked up some elaborate history tracing it back to Roman chariotmakers and the need for a light workbench for field repair of chariots.

Kind of like that internet legend about the width of standard train rails being determined by the width of two horses in harness to a chariot.