Sargent plane with bedrock type frog

Re: Sargent plane with bedrock type frog

Derek Cohen (in Perth, Australia)


>Moses

I have not heard of a Bed Rock type frog on a Sargent, but will defer to those that have more experience (that's not hard!). As far as I know, the VBM range of Sargent planes was just renamed as a marketing strategy - the planes were not different in any way to their predecessors.

I recall that Todd likes the Sargent range, and he will likely be along to have his say. I have only owned one Sargent (#409?) and found it lightweight in comparison to the equivalent Stanley #4.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Re: Could it be a Vaughn & Bushnell?

Dale Stansbery


>I have one (V&B that is I think)that is only marked on the blade. It has a U shaped end on the lateral adjustment lever. The only other distinguishing feature is the bedrock type frog.

Re: Could it be a Vaughn & Bushnell? 

Dale Stansbery

I asked this type of question awhile ago

Bob Hackett


>I have since found that some(not all)of the VBM planes have this type of frog.V&B`s have them,although they go for close to bedrock prices(easy to spot by the fact they also have flat sides).

Keen Kutters with the single K in the number on the body also have a bedrock type frog.

My question back then was what other planes to look for?Does the Winchester line bring better prices because of the frog or just the name?

Mainely,Bob

They're not quite the same

Dave Thompson


>Hi Moses, there are some similarities, like external frog lock screws, but depending on what defines a bedrock to you, there are some differences. Here are pictures of both.

With a Bedrock, the bedding between frog and base is solid. As you can see with the Sargent, as the frog is moved forward, there is more and more of an air gap between frog and base near the blade.

I have a #5 size (414) and #6 (418) size Sargent VBM and I think they are good users. I have to hold back on some of my comments because I suspect some frankenplane tampering with mine. Heckel's book aside, I think they're also generally very good value.

enjoy,

Dave

Stanley Bedrock Frog picture 

Dave Thompson

What you have is a Shaw's patent...

Bryan in Broad Ripple, IN


>What you have is a Shaw's patent VBM. The numbering for them is different verses the regular VBM line. For example, I have a Sargent #9 which is the Shaw's patent version of the Sargent #409. This is equivalent to a Stanley #4, BTW. I bought mine because the frog was so massive and I thought it might be something special. I was correct.

They are fairly rare, and pretty neat planes. The bedding on these may actually be superior to the Bedrocks in that the frog (and hence the blade) moves parallel to the sole rather than at an angle (like the Bedrock) when the frog is adjusted. Thus, the blade depth doesn't change when you adjust the frog. In addition, the wood is gorgeous on these planes as Sargent used a beautiful ribbon mahogany on them instead of rosewood.

They are reportedly quite valuable and "book" for $200 to $300. Of course, what they would actually fetch on e-Bay is anyones guess.

-Bryan

Re: What you have is a Shaw's patent...

Dave Thompson


>Hi Bryan, Yes, the photo I posted is the frog taken from the 1911 Sargent catalog. Below is the image from the US patent office (John Shaw's) filed in 1906 (824,954). I believe they are one in the same, though the catalog image is a little easier to follow.

enjoy,

Dave

2nd page 

Dave Thompson

Re: Could it be a Vaughn & Bushnell?

Tom MacGregor


>Vaughn & Bushnell made three series of planes: the 700(Uncle Sam), 800(Lincoln) & 900. I believe all had a Bedrock style frog although I haven't yet had a 700 series in my hand. My 806 Lincoln is well made and has a walnut tote that fits larger hands better than a Stanley. The 900 series are drop-forged and plated and seem to be generally of good quality, although my 905 is not machined as well as my two 903's and will require some work to get the edge of the frog dead square to the mouth.

VBM and Etc..

Todd Hughes


>First VBM which stands for "Very Best Made" was just a logo that Sargent used on all thier tools from 1909 -1918 ...it is NOT a seperate line of planes and doesn't stand for a special high quality line of tools.Only means they were made between 1909 -1918. I've seen this logo on other Sargent tools like screwdrivers. Is like the sweet heart logo used by Stanley.

The Sargent plane you are talking about as somone else said is a Sargent Shaw's Patent plane. While the results are simular [easy to adjust solid bedded frog] to a Stanley Bedrock the frog and plane is a good bit differet. These planes are numbered from 7 [7in. long] to 24 [24 in. long] The regular Sargents have a 40 in front of thier numbers which corospond to how long they are too. These Shaw patent planes were only made from 1910-18 so you can see that all of them would have been VBM planes but...again not all VBM planes are Shaws Patent planes Right?

...I have a couple of these things somwhere, I would rate them as being uncommon to find. Most are probably worth about the same as a Stanley Bedrock at least they "book" about the same [maybe a bit lower]. Might be harder to sell a so so one as less people are looking for them as users. I think one of the things about them is that they look very simular to a regular Sargent unless you look behind the frog so alot of them probably get overlooked in the wild. I know one of the ones I found the only reason I noticed it was because I was standing at an auction waiting and just happened to look a little closer at a non descript plane and saw what it was. Would have been better marketing for Sargent if they used a distinctive lever cap / name or body style like Stanley did on thier Bedrocks I think.....Todd