Damascus Steel

Re: Damascus Steel, made in China?

bill tindall


>Well, you know that it wasn't made in Damascus! Isn't ss 440 + Damascus steel an oximoron? But it still might cut cheese, open cans when you forget the can opener and intimidate bears.

TheTeam Canada shirt would be nice to have .

Re: Damascus Steel

Dale Stansbery


>I doubt that the stainless is Damascus. It's probably just an etched design, but I'm no expert.

Re: Damascus Steel

Moses Yoder in White Pigeon, MI


>Damascus steel is two different steels forged together in layers. If your knife has a "grain" in it, and looks like it has two different colors of steel, it would be damascus steel. Damascus steel is not necessarily hand forged, it can be layers of steel forged together in a press. So some damascus is worth quite a bit more than others. If it says "China" on it, it is probably not worth much, but still worth more than just a regular knife that says "China" on it.

Re: Damascus Steel

Frank D. in Montreal


>Hi Vlad,

If the blade is only 440 then it's not damascus. If it's laminated with another kind of steel then it is. As someone else mentioned, it's probably etched on to the blade. Do the lines continue all the way to the edge, or do they disappear where the steel is sharpened? Maybe lap the sides or polish them if you really want to know. You can also look at the handle, lock, and spring: are they high quality, engraved?. Stainless damascus is difficult to forge from what I've read, and is usually found in very high-quality knives. I'm no expert mind you, I'm just starting to get involved in knife making.

I'll take damascus for $500 please

Adam Cherubini, NJ


>bep beep beep "what is wootz?" Alex

I believe there to be no more damascus. Damascus was made from material mined in India called Wootz from about 200-1700AD. It contained small amounts of stuff not found eleswhere. Existing damascus blades appear to have super high carbon alloys which may have allowed it to be useful in the annealed state. (it could well have been work hardened). But not much is known since the owners of damascus are generally reluctant to offer samples for materials testing.

When the one area were wootz was mined dried up, there was no more damascus steel produced and no one's even been able to recreate it. Some people have claimed to recreate it, but never told how they did it so we don't really know whether they unlocked some ancient mystery or not.

What people call damascus today is just pattern welded steel formed in such a way so that it looks like damascus. But damascus wasn't pattern welded- at least that isn't what created the pattern. There's really not much similar about what guys are saying is damascus today and the special steel that Saladin used to behead knights templar prisoners captured in the battle of Hattin. It was said that a damascus blade could slice a man in half through his mail shirt without getting dull. Its no wonder such blades were thought to have mystical powers. That and the patterns are very fine, much finer than the modern copies. Not hard to imagine an owner of such a blade might be able to make out some arabic word or koranic scripture in the pattern.

So you don't have a damascus knife, but neither does anybody else.

Adam

Damascus *LINK*

Frank D. in Montreal


>Hi Adam,

That is very interesting info about Damascus! Although the term is no longer used exclusively to refer to the kind of steel you are talking about, it is still commonly used today by professional blade makers, historians, and the steel industry to refer to laminated steel of various kinds.

And last time I checked all my planes all had an iron! :)


http://www.dfoggknives.com/damascus.htm

Re: I'll take damascus for $500 please

Phil Joines Krum, Tx.


>The way I heard it Wootz was the process (and probably the place where the process was invented)used to add carbon to the iron. The iron was forged into dine sized pieces, placed in a lidded pottery crock with wool and heated over a wood fire for several days. Don't know if that's correct or not. Damascus, Syria was the transshipment point between India and Europe so the Europeans called it by the name of the city where they bought it.

Re: I'll take damascus for $500 please

paul womack


>Perhaps the "secret" is being rediscovered...

http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM/9809/Verhoeven-9809.html

BugBear

Re: Damascus

Adam Cherubini, NJ


>Because that smith instantly equates damascus with laminated steel doesn't make it so, Frank. And this isn't a name thing. Its people claiming they are making something they are not. They're not stupid. Just about everyone interested in blades has heard of the legendary damascus blades. So its a benign sort of fraud.

When you stain a piece of tulip poplar with minwax red mahogany, you don't then call it mahogany do you? Its like that.

Adam

Re: I'll take damascus for $500 please

Adam Cherubini, NJ


>Last time I googled this subject, I thought wootz was the indian word for steel. I think you are correct that it came from one region. Further, I suspect India has a sheffield-like metal working region with a long history of metal work.

I never got the Damascus connection, except the pattern looks like the cloth we call damascus or damask. We know that Persians had it, as did shia arabs (I think Saladin was shia). I heard Saladin was from Saddam Hussein's home town of Tikrit. The armies that fought against the crusaders weren't all local suni arab palestians. So I also don't get the connection between indian metal working and the diversity of owners throughout the middle east.

Adam

Re: I'll take damascus for $500 please

paul womack


>Damascus Steel�A Rediscovery

Wootz steel (True Damascus)

The big names seem to be Verhoeven, Pendray, Perttula and Sherby & Wadsworth.

Papers by these people are most interesting reading.

BugBear

Actually.....

Todd Hughes


>OK....Wootze steel was apparently made in small batches in clay cruciables by "cooking " or melting small pieces of steel that was covered by other materials which would add carbon to it then these these small pieces would be worked and refined by forging. The west had a hard time understanding what wootze steel was because they were looking for it to be some type of tempering process instead of how the steel was made.By the way Europeons had been making laminated "Damascus" steel blades for hundereds of years with the viking smiths making some of the most elaberate pattern swords ever. Over 10 years ago I believe Al Pendry was suposedly the first modern western smiths to make wootze and today probably a good many others are at least claiming to do it.

.... While wootze steel was not made by pattern welding it was sometimes used as a material in the pattern welding of steel I believe. I have a pattern welded sword and gun barrel from this region so of course "Damascus" [laminated pattern welded] steel was being made here and not just wootze steel. The skilled smiths from here are known to be able to put words etc. into thier patterns of the steel and this was done by minipulating the laminated steel as it was pattern welded

Steel today that is called Damascus would probably more properly be called laminated or pattern welded steel though I don't think it is really a big thing.Now if you call your pattern welded steel "Wootze" Steel that would be a different thing.

Some years back I was lucky to find this ivory handle Persian Kard knife that has a wootze steel blade. The steel has quite a different look then a laminated blade, not layers but rather many small "spots" though the steel.I sharpened this knife up and it does take an amazing edge. I'm not a type of guy to buy into hype but it does seem to have gotton sharper then regular steel but I don't know...sort of hard to explain. Is very hard steel and while I can't prove it I always suspected it was made by laminating the wootze outer layer over a softer iron core...well enough about all of this....Todd

Y'ever read Cyril Smith's book?

John in New Mexico


>I think its called "A History of Metalography". Probably out of print, but there's always the library. The author discusses extensively the difference between true damascus steel and pattern welding, and theorizes as to the reasons for its relative superiority to European steels of the period and why it bacame legendary. I also took a class once at a community college from a knifemaker who had made a blade along the lines in Smith's book, using fine alluvial magnetite as a starting material.

I'm looking forward to reading the article Paul posted a url for, looks like a good one. Got to go to town today for laundry, groceries, and some soft tennis shoes so we can finish putting on our metal roof (man are those things slippery!).

John

good overview of current knowledge  *LINK*

paul womack



http://forging.org/FIERF/pdf/Damascus_Steel.pdf