Tenon Sawing Observations... Or is it Just Me?

Re: Tenon Sawing Observations... Or is it Just Me?

mikew


>Hi Brad,

I think your observations are typical. It's one reason many will not use a saw for tenons, unless they are smallish.

Often, a sharp, properly set, coarser tenon saw will alleviate or obviate the issue of speed/error altogether. My personal experience is that more strokes equals greater fatigue resulting in error much of the time.

I also believe we as woodworkers generally have saws with too fine a pitch for some of the tasks we require of them.

So in your example of a 3" wide tenon, I would use a 9 ppi large tenon saw that has a relatively thin saw plate. Certainly no finer than a 10 ppi. Once a faster cutting saw is in use, cutting to a line is easier.

Take care, Mike

Re: Tenon Sawing Observations... Or is it Just Me?

david.marcus.brown


>Hi Brad,

It's definitely not just you. I have the same issue when cutting large tenons.

1) cutting to a line is harder because you have a deeper cut that gives you more time for your cut to go astray. Once you get off track, it's hard to correct. You have to resist wanting to twist the saw as this will bind the blade and give you more headaches. I find it easier to stay on track if I focus on cutting in two planes. Initially, I'll begin the horizontal portion of the cut -- where the saw is parallel to the floor. Once that cut is established -- maybe 1/16" -- I'll establish my vertical portion of the cut -- where the saw is approximately 45* from horizontal. Once I've got these cuts established, I connect the cuts, taking care to keep the saw tracking tight in both planes. I try to cut with the saw horizontal for a while, then 45* from horizontal, then somewhere in the middle. This seems to keep the cut free of sawdust and the cut proceeds more quickly.

2) The saws cutting action shouldn't be drastically different than when you're cutting thin stock. If you find the saw binding or not wanting to cut smoothly, work on your form and you're grip. Don't grip the saw too tightly or try to forcefully steer it. You can steer the saw a bit by paying attention to where saw plate is putting pressure in the cut. The work definitely proceeds more slowly because those teeth have more sawdust to carry out of the cut and when they're full, the cutting action stops. I like an aggressive cutting rip saw. I believe the tenon saw that Mike made for me is about 10ppi. I'd like to go with 8ppi or coarser. It takes getting used to and you definitely can't force the saw with a blade that coarse. I've gotten used to ripping boards with my 5-1/2ppi Atkins saw and love it. It's not hard to start as long as you relax for the first few strokes. You definitely don't want to fight the saw. Learn to relax and work with it.

Hand tools definitely force you to search for a rhythm.

Re: Tenon Sawing Observations... Or is it Just Me?

Edward J


>Although I'm not "experienced" in d/t's I have tried out a few trial joints, using 3/4" mahogany. Although I have some issues, mainly keeping my body in line with the saw, it was fairly easy and managed to produce some decent looking joint samples.

When I "applied" my newly aquired skills to my first project, a rough 18 x 26" box made from 2x6"'s I knew it was more difficult, mostly keeping the saw ( a Jap. dozuki style) even, as the almost double thickness magnifies my saw mistakes.

But, I'm hooked on the hand sawing now. Must be something to do with finding the "perfect rythem" and the fact that I just plain hate the $99 CDN tire special table saw I recieved on my last b'day....

Re: Tenon Sawing Observations... Or is it Just Me?

Vlad


>Hi Brad,

Keep going. It's not that hard and I can't imagine cutting 3" tenons all that often in normal case work - if I follow what you are doing correctly. Anyway... To your points.

1. Cutting to a line is harder.

That is correct, because on shorter cuts you are able to manouvre the saw with your wrist and using the kerf/set of the blade to follow that short line. With a 3" deep tenon it gets much more difficult to do any type of manuouvring (sp?), plus the saw is in much more contact with the wood and more teeth are engageed in the cutting action. If you can't saw to the line and you have to chisel to the line, don't worry about it. It doesn't say anything about your craftsmanship at all. The tenon is hidden in the mortise and remember the the final product is what everyone sees.

2. Perhaps your saw doesn't have enough set in it? Are you using a LN saw? Personally on a tenon saw I like about 5-6 thou set per side. You may get a rougher cut but again no one is gonna see that. You'll probobly trim it up anyway.

Keep going. I'm no Master but I just like doing the handtools stuff much more than with power tools - if it makes sense to do so (ex. ripping).

Finally the smoothness of the cut is in relation to the number of teeth, amount of set and the wood you are cutting (ex. maple vs. oak).

My 2 cents. Enjoy your hobby.

Vlad

I completely agree

Scott Burr in Ben Lomond CA


>Mike said... "I also believe we as woodworkers generally have saws with too fine a pitch for some of the tasks we require of them."

Try getting a LN dovetail saw through 2 ganged together 3/4" thick boards, no fun...

BTW Mike, I landed a new job this week, we talk about saws soon ;^)

Re: I completely agree

Dean J in MN


>Mike said... "I also believe we as woodworkers generally have saws with too fine a pitch for some of the tasks we require of them."

Try getting a LN dovetail saw through 2 ganged together 3/4" thick boards, no fun...

Carcase saw domain isn't it? :)

I agree with Mike as well, we tend toward saws which are too small and too find toothed.

-Dean

Oh, youbetchya!

Scott Burr in Ben Lomond CA


>Haven't had a change to pick one up, but I will soon...

Re: Tenon Sawing Observations... Or is it Just Me?

Joe Rogers, Northern Virginia


>I find if I "rush" the cut it gets bad in a hurry. Let the saw do the work. If I push the cut or add too much force the cut deteriorates. Ripping or crosscutting.JR

Re: Tenon Sawing Observations... Or is it Just Me?

Adam Cherubini, NJ


>Brad,

I disagree with my friends here. I think you're doing something wrong. Sounds to me as though you have a technique problem that you're getting by with on thin stock.

Do you saw corners out or do you begin by placing the saw flat on the line?

Just from what you've said, it sounds to me like you're doing the latter. This is a very bogus technique often demonstrated by top woodworkers who similarly can get away with it as long as the saw is X and the stock is Y.

With good technique you can do that job with a 24tpi hack saw or a 28" 4tpi rip saw. The right saw makes the job easier and faster. The right saw is easy to start. But the right saw doesn't help you "track". I think that vibration noise on the back stroke is the saw bending because your kerf is swarfed because you forced the blade to correct the line.

So do yourself 2 favors:

1) Do the same job again with the same saw, but this time saw the corners out. If you go awry, lay the saw down in the kerf to correct- no twisting or bending.

2) Once you get that straight, you'll have earned the right to own a real tenon saw. So email Mike and have him make you a good saw that will do that job quickly and easily. Not that's a tool to be proud of. A well made tool that you've earned the right to own with your skill.

Or I could be wrong! ;)

Adam

Re: Tenon Sawing Observations... Or is it Just Me?

Peter Hyde


>Personally I never use a tenon saw for cutting the cheeks of a tenon. This is a job for a good rip saw. Leave the tenon saw for cutting the shoulders that is what it was meant for, being used in conjunction with a bench hook. But if you really have to re-invent the wheel.......

Peter

Visit my site at:

http://www.oldtoolsshop.com/Galoots/pHyde/

Re: Tenon Sawing Observations... Or is it Just Me?

Brad in Ottawa


>Thanks all!

I purposely left out details regarding saw and technique and from the responses I can say that everyone made some pretty accurate assumptions. (For the record 12 tpi, little set and the pitch is probably a little fine for the job at hand.)

I got a little time to practice since posting and I know that my technique was causing the noise. It isn't from bending the saw in the cut. I don't know how to describe it but I believe I was overpushing the saw so that when I pulled back it wasn't that smooth and the saw would rub/hang/drag on the far end while it came back into line. I hope this is somewhat clear. This problem would not appear on thinner stock.

As for accuracy, practice makes perfect. I can definitely see improvement. Heck, I even decided to try the corner/corner approach. The only thing I don't like about this method is that if there is an error it produces a hump in the middle rather than a uniformly misshapen tenon! Again practice is making that a thing of the past.

Brad

PS - It's pretty uncanny. First with a brief description of my work everyone makes accurate posts regarding what I am doing. But none of you had any idea that I was looking at Mike's saws online earlier this week! It's almost as if I am destined to buy one after I get the technique down.

Re: Tenon Sawing Observations... Or is it Just Me?

Frank D. in Montreal


>Hi Peter,

You have way more experience than I, but I thought tenon saws were meant for cutting tenons...and were filed rip. I have two tenon saws, a 14" (recent) and an 18" (an old Disston), and both are filed rip. When you speak of a rip saw, are you still referring to a back saw?

I think you have it backwards

Adam Cherubini, NJ


>Heck, I even decided to try the corner/corner approach. The only thing I don't like about this method is that if there is an error it produces a hump in the middle rather than a uniformly misshapen tenon! Again practice is making that a thing of the past.

The hump is the advantage of this technique. Its a hump surrounded by tenon at the correct thickness (because you maintained the line all around). This is very easy to fix with a wide chisel.

The worst case scenario for a tenon is the uniformly misshapen. Its very rare in my shop to miss the line and have a tenon uniformly 1/16" too fat. That's what machines do and the reason for shoulder planes. In my shop the worst case tenon is angled in two directions. This can be pretty tricky to fix. Sawing the corners out and dealing with the hump (its really not a fait accompli though) is really the better alternative.

Adam

Re: I think you have it backwards

Brad in Ottawa


>I didn't think of that!

Doesn't really matter though as I am fairly pleased with my tenons now! Now I need to make sure that they fit into my mortises.

Thanks again to everyone!

Brad