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Planes, again...

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Planes, again...

#1

Planes, again...

Edward J


>Wrote a while back about buying a decent plane. Saved up my pennies, have the req'd amount, and am now studying the LV catalouge with great interest. The Veritas planes are a no-brainer, had a chance to hold them in my grubby little hands a while back, and am duly impressed with the quality and workmanship, and although the LN planes are very nice, I really tend to shy away from mail order stuff and Credit cards...

But what kind of a plane? My beginner's logic tells me that the larger the plane is, the more accurate, like a rifle I guess, so the 22" BU jointer comes to mind. But can I use the jointer for other stuff? Maybe then the 15" BU Jack?. In my spartan collection of tools I have a block plane, a #4, a #78, and a Record #6 (with a LV replacement blade.) I'm at a stage now where I can get a decent edge on the irons, can plane end grain on oak, and am taking pleasure--albeit a long time too, in dimensioning red oak and poplar pieces "rescued" from pallets.

Any suggestions?

Re: Planes, again...

#2

Re: Planes, again...

Dick Schafer


>Do the BU Jack, you'll never regret it. Mine is my workhorse and go to plane for most everything.

Re: Planes, again...

#3

Re: Planes, again...

Edward J


>Thanks. My B'day is coming up next week. It'll be my little present to myself...

Re: Planes, again...

#4

Happy birthday to you...:>)

V Parisian

Re: Planes, again...

#5

Happy Birthday!

Scott Burr in Ben Lomond, CA


>I second it. Get the Jack plane. Do it quick 'cause the prices will be going up!

Re: Planes, again...

#6

Re: Planes, again...

John Hoffman


>"and although the LN planes are very nice, I really tend to shy away from mail order stuff and Credit cards..."

Not following here, wouldn't you have to use mail and credit cards for the LV?

Just curious.

JH

Re: Planes, again...

#7

Re: Planes, again...

Dan Clermont in Burnaby


>Hi Edward

I believe from a previous post you mentioned you were from Vancouver. "The Joint" sells LN planes and are located on West 2nd Ave near the Cambie street bridge (across from the police station)

If I was to buy one all round plane I would go with a jack size

Dan Clermont

Re: Planes, again...

#8

Re: Planes, again...

Paul Kierstead


>You won't go wrong on an LV plane, but I am curious about the "mail order and credit cards" comment. Do you shy away from credit cards entirely or just with mail order?

If the latter, many mail order businesses are far far more reputable and conscientious about your card then local businesses are. Furthermore the credit card company has extensive fraud protection and will not hold you liable for charges you do not initiate beyond $50 (and they often waive that). Mail order businesses very often offer prices and quality (often together) that are complete out of reach in most cities and definitely not all available in any on city. You do yourself a great disservice ignoring them. If you don't know who to trust, ask about the one that captures your interest and I am sure someone will have an experience to relate.

Re: Planes, again...

#9

Re: Planes, again...

Ian Smith (Sydney Australia)


>I've bought a few items from Lie-Nielsen in the USA and had them ship the items to me in Sydney Australia. The purchasing was done via their website using a credit card. I have not had a problem and the service from Lie-Nielsen has been great.

I've bought other stuff from Lee Valley and Tools for Working Wood via mail order and credit cards and I have not had a problem their either.

Provided you are purchasing from a reputable source I think there is a very low risk of problems eventuating.

Regards,

Ian.

Re: Planes, again...

#10

Re: Planes, again...

Edward J


>Didn't think my post would generate so much response... It's true, I do live in Vancouver, and have haunted the LV to the point where I have to keep my visits secret in order to keep the domestic peace.

Yesterday afternoon was such a visit, and when the clerk brought out the plane, my hands went instinctively out towards the box even though the clerk was still about 10 feet from me... Honed up the massively thick blade and took a few swipes at some end grain on red oak, still can't wipe the sh**-eating grin from my face...

Although I am under 45, I am white-knuckle-shallow-breathing-scared about posting my credit card # on the web. Please understand, this is not intedended to slight or irk the many reputable dealers who do the bulk of their business via the web. For me it's kinda like bungee-cord jumping: Very safe, but I just won't do it.

Ah, "The Joint" a wonderfull woodworking place/hangout so aptly named for Vancouver, and so ironically located directly across from the Vancouver Police Bldg. Haven't checked them out yet, driven by many times and stared in their show windows, In anycase, my mayo jar is empty, and it'll be a while before I have anything saved up worth buying.

At the moment, I've just competed my first "practical" dovetail project: An open box constructed of 2 pcs pressure treated 2x6's and 2 pcs DF 2x6's, measuring 18"x 24", dovetailed together and containing an alumimum post anchored by two bags of Home Despots finest quick cement. The post is for our laundry tree. Works well, domestic peace has been achieved, I can move the whole thing at someone's whim if need be, and I have an excuse to spend a few hours in the garge most evenings... I'm also building my first "practical" piece of furniture, a saw bench out of regular 2x4 stock as illustrated in this month's issue of a woodworking magazine.

Still having problems getting parts for my #78 Stanley, ordered a new fence and arm a few weeks ago but still haven't got a confirmation or price. Worse yet, I overtightened the screw on the fence and magaged to burst the casting, the threaded part of course, two itty pieces cracked off which I JB welded back togther. Don't know how much good it'll do, was thinking of drilling out the hole to 3/16 and tapping it for a common 3/16 bolt, but I don't think there's enough "meat" on the casting, and will probably burst the thing all over again when I tighted it up. Oh well, for the time being I'll use it as a quasi-shoulder plane for the tennons on my saw bench project....

Re: Planes, again...

#11

Re: Planes, again...

Paul Kierstead


>The huge majority (and I do mean huge) of credit card fraud come down to inside jobs, where an employee gives the number to a third party or uses it straight out (exceptionally dumb, but happens). This is far more likely at the local gas station or restuarant then at an on-line retailer.

There is a certain amount of fraud with criminals 'stealing' credit card databases, typically using the internet. It is important to note that the credit card numbers may very well have been gathered retail; just because the internet was used to steal them doesn't mean that they were gathered on the internet. This accounts for a fairly small amount of the fraud.

If you go to www.leevalley.com or www.toolsforworkingwood.com or www.lie-nielsen.com or other reputable well-known dealer, you are in NO danger.

Finally.... on every transaction you purchase with a credit card, anywhere, the vendor is charged 0.5-5% of the sale to cover costs, including fraud. This raises all the prices as vendors pass that cost onto us. You are paying fraud insurance everytime you buy something with your credit card. If your number is stolen, you will owe at absolutely maximum $50. You can check this out if you want. So you are alreadly paying the insurance, you might as well take advantage.

Dang, I sound like a CC salesman....

Enjoy your plane!

Re: Planes, again...

#12

Jack Guzman from Maine

Alternative to credit card..

Jack Guzman from Maine


>I buy from LV,LN,and Tools for Working Wood by mail. All these sellers have a check/money order option. I don't use credit cards. For anything. I'm not worried about fraud,just still living in the past when people actually still handled cash.---Jack

Re: Planes, again...

#13

Re: Planes, again...

VTAndy4


>For most credit cards, you are not responsible for fraud, as long as it is detected within a certain time frame (on mine, I believe it is 2 billing cycles). Check with your card's bank. When fraud occurs, the bank usually picks it up before you even see it on a statement. (All of this might not apply to bank cards that are linked to a checking account.)

-Andy

Re: Planes, again...

#14

Re: Alternative to credit card..

Edward J


>I guess I should go ahead, but like Jack, I guess I'm still living in the past. However, it looks like I'll eventually use my MC to get the parts for the Stanley #78, 3 weeks and no reply from Stanley Canada, this is through my local Hardware Store, a Home Hardware affiliate and has significant "pull" with Stanley--Not saying I expect the parts within 3 weeks, but just a confirmation that they ARE ordered and the expected cost.

Re: Planes, again...

#15

One other alternative

Dan Donaldson


>Get another credit card and have it set at a low limit and use only that one for internet purchases.

Re: Planes, again...

#16

Re: Alternative to credit card..

KevinF in NZ


>I have a #78 fence and rod that I can let you have. I guess we should do some comparisons first to get reasonable assurance that the threads on the rod will fit your plane.

Cheers

Kevin

Re: Planes, again...

#17

Re: Alternative to credit card..

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX


>Criminy, I've got a whole 78 with all its parts that someone can have for shipping.

Pam

Re: Planes, again...

#18

I'll take it

Dan Clermont in Burnaby


>Ping me offline

Dan Clermont

Re: Planes, again...

#19

Re: Stanley 78

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX


>Oops, should have mentioned that it has no blade. I threw it out a couple of years ago when I realized the whole problem was the blade wouldn't take an edge.

Pam

Re: Planes, again...

#20

My 2 cents.

Vlad


>Ah planes....

Slowly I am converting to Todd's way of thinking - kind of...

I am slowly selling off my "new planes" and refurbishing the old stuff I was collecting and selling. I have always had problems buying tools that cost a lot of money...especially when you're paying $22K in daycare costs per year.

So over the last year I've had an epiphany. My old planes with my A2 irons and 1/2 hour of refurbishing are just as good as my new shiny LN or LV planes and at 1/4 the price if not less. I have a thing for Record SS planes and am reburbing a 4, 5 and 6. My Bedcrock 604 with a 1/8" iron does just as good a job as the LN 4 1/2. My UK Stanley 9 1/2 is equal if not better than my LV LABP. They are just not as shiny. Furthermore, I really like the old used look and starting to actually appreciate the work done with these planes before we had LV, LN, BCTW etc.... I think the glitter/bling got to me early on.

If you want to mail your money away to someone...buy the LV shoulder plane because your #6 will do a fine job of flattening most work unless you're flattening 8' tables. If you got lots of money buy a S&S jointer or a SMT Loopy.

My 2 cents

Respectfully,

Vlad

Re: Planes, again...

#21

Re: I'll take it

Ernie Miller


>Dan I think I have a blade in my box O parts I will dig thru and check.

Re: Planes, again...

#22

Offer it to Edward as a parts plane

Dan Clermont in Burnaby

Re: Planes, again...

#23

Re: Offer it to Edward as a parts plane

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX


>That was my intent in offering it here, but basically, most anyone can have it, just one or two exceptions.

Pam

Re: Planes, again...

#24

Damn right

James Watriss


>I've spent the last year and a half at school buying planes off of ebay, tuning them up, and using, using, using them. God Bless North Bennet.

My personal notes on it all are like this:

-Steel. Blade steel is what makes the cut. The rest of the plane is there to hold the iron. If you are insistent on old steel, look for hte stanley sweetheart blades. They're the best thing I've found shy of hock high carbon. Then comes A2. Then comes S53. A2 is more than enough, S53 is wonderful, but expensive and harder to sharpen. The thicker the blade the better, and YES, the new chipbreakers from L-N and Hock do make a world of difference. Don't buy the thicker L-N A2 blades for an old plane, you get a lot of backlash.

-Planes. There are a lot of old stanleys out there. I would recommend the sweetheart vintage, there are a lot of 3's and 4's to be found for short money on ebay. Failing that, just look for a frog that has a smooth face, as opposed to more recent ones that were relieved. Also, buy the first Charlesworth book, and do everything he tells you to whenit comes to tuning hand planes. I have an old sweetheart #4 with a replacement hock iron in it. It works just as well as my L-N, for $200 less, and some time and effort.

My personal favorites out of my old planes are the 3, 4, and 5 1/2. The three for miscellaneous small-plane work, the 4 for general smoothing, and the 5 1/2 for anything of a bigger size. I do have a #7. I had a #8. I never used the 8, so I sold it. I also have an old mathieson infill with a Holtey blade in it... it's very, very quirky. But now that we're more intimately aquainted, I really love the thing.

If I had to make a recommendation for new planes, I'd recommend the bevel up stuff, from either company, and if you're looking for a smoother, take a serious look at the high-angle frogs from Lie-Nielsen. They're one of the few features of the new planes that I haven't seen on the old planes, and for that reason alone, I think they're worth it.

Planes I've tried:

-3, 3c. I love this size of plane, it fits my hand very nicely. I very much favor the sweet-heart vintage. I had a more recent 3c, it doesn't work as well.

-4, 4c, Bedrock 4c, L-N high angle 4c. Love them all. The high angle does make a difference, though, and is definately noteworthy, but that said, the other ones work very nicely.

-4 1/2. One was a wwII vintage, one's a low-knob 4 1/2c

-5 1/2c. (old style, with a 2 1/4" blade, instead of the 2 3/8 that the 4 1/2, 6, and 7 used.)

-Veritas 6, briefly. It still need a little bit of flattening side to side, and I never got around to getting that done. I think it's very well put together, but the arch in the middle flexes when the blade engages, and when the sole flattens out, the blade really digs into the wood. It's been in my basement for almost 2 years now, in the box, unflattened.

-L-N low angle Jack. yes, this thing is a workhorse. But it's a horse that's been beaten to death on this forum, so I'll leave that to the others to bounce around. No, North Bennet doesn't like or approve of htis plane, and I've had to defend it a few times as a result. Don't care, it works for me.

-I've also tried a few wooden planes. I started out by tuning up a transitional plane once upon a time, and while it does have some issues, I think these planes do have some potential. A year ago I put up a posting that got people begging for an article, and I'm still working on that, becuase my wooden-plane building has put it off, and given me some new insights. Hopefully I'll get it done sometime soon. But it will now be a two-part article. One on tuning up old while retaining the original beech block, and one on making a new block. I've also had the joy of using a Clark and Williams coffin smoother at a molding plane workshop given by Larry Williams at school. I took a two-day wooden plane making course at my local woodcraft store, taught by a Doctor whose name I really must remember... he's a friend of Karl Holtey's, and is very knowledgable about planes. And I've made a few attempts at chopping out solid-body wooden smoothers myself. For some reason the Krenov planes look marvelous to me, but also look a bit simple to really grab my interest. Dollars to Donuts, I'd bet that I'm making a silly assumption... I'm sure there's much more to them than meets the eye, and I plan on building one sometime soon.

If you've never, ever bought a plane before, and you have access to a good class or workshop, I'd recommend buying an old Stanley and tuning it up. It's not as hard as it sounds. If you're more interested in just buying a working plane, go for L-N or Veritas, but keep your eyes peeled for older planes, too, and don't be afraid to learn more about them as you use them.

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