Plane values

Re: Plane values

Martin Shupe


>Don't tell Todd H. where she lives! Kudos to you for trying to be fair.

Re: Plane values

Derek Cohen (in Perth, Australia)


>Hi Bob

You're OK with me.

To obtain a realistic value of these tools one needs to begin with accurate identification. Can you determine the Type they are? A Type 11 in new condition and in its box will be more valuable than a Type 19 (to say the least!). Since they are new, however, I suspect that they are more likely to be of recent vintage. This will lower the price considerably. Once you have identified them, look for completed auctions on eBay. This should get you into the ballpark.

If you are having difficulty with the identification, these links may help:

http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Plains/9147/flowchart.html

http://www.hyperkitten.com/tools/stanley_bench_plane/dating/

http://www.supertool.com/StanleyBG/stan0a.html

... or just post pictures here. Someone will be able to help.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Re: Plane values

Moses Yoder in White Pigeon, MI


>I bought a like new in the box doweling jig for $45 at a local antique shop from a tool dealer, which I think was about the right price for it. This is an old box, yellowish color with green label. The bright yellow boxes are much more recent and not as desirable for collectors. I usually figure that my time spent reserarching tools is worth something, and will tell somebody if they ask what I think the tools is worth, and what I would pay for it. It depends on the situation, if it is one tool I really want I can pay book value for it, but if is a batch of tools with some that I don't want I offer 50% or less. If buying to resell I think most dealers pay about 25% of resale value. I of course always prefer to have the seller set the price, instead of being asked what I would pay for it.

Fair Prices ?

Todd Hughes


>Well Martin S. you could always just write her a check for $5,000 and that would probably be more then fair.....uhmmm,..I didn't think so

This question as to what is a "fair price" really only leads to more questions.What type of "fair Price" are you asking about? Are you asking the price of what one of these tools would bring when sold by a tool dealer for its top retail price? Are you asking what would be a "Fair Price" for a tool like this being sold in a yard sale by a woman that has nothing invested in it and doesn't even most likely know what it is that she is selling?

... I am sure some people like perhaps Martin S. thinks because I can get say $125 for a in the box no. 65 when I sell it that is it's "Fair Price" and as such is the same "Fair Price" I should pay for it from the yard sale woman who asks me what it is worth. So Martin what should I pay for a plane like this? What would be a fair price? What would be a fair profit for me to make? What would be a fair profit for the seller of it to me to make?

...I get up befor light, drive 60 miles, have invested lots of time and effert to know what it is that I am buying and then after buying it have to go to the not a little work to sell it plus take the risk that it might not even sell for what I thought.

...The woman selling it found it in her garage where her dead husband left it , picks it up and asks me what it is worth and that is about the extent of her effert and expense....and if I am to be "fair" I should offer her what?...$125? Is curious but it always seems to me those that think like this are the Monday morning quaterbacks when it comes to such moral issues and don't really have much experance actually playing in a real game.

You know I could tell you what a Dowling jig in the box is "worth", but I'm not. I never tell a seller what to sell thier stuff to me for and you shouldn't either. Just ask her what it would take to make her happy when she sells these tools. You pay it or you don't. I don't see what could be more of a fair price for a seller then the one they set themselves and is the one they want to get and are happy to get .....Todd

Agree with Todd H - the seller knows what's fair.

Angus Barclay, in New Zealand


>Hello Bob,

I can see that you don't want to rip off the dead woodworker's daughter and that's a noble position to start from. But the "fair" price won't be found by asking here on Wood Central or looking at ebay sales. All that will tell you is what other people are prepared to pay for similar items in different circumstances than yours.

The fair price in EVERY transaction is the one that both the seller and the buyer are happy with. This applies to everything from apples to autos. What's fair is affected as much by the trust and history between the buyer and seller as it is by the goods or services being sold. For example, it's fair for long-established retailers with a great reputation to expect slightly more for an item than it is for Joe Schmuck selling the same thing from a flea market.

In this particular transaction, you need to weigh up more than just the current market price of the tools in the basement. You need to consider that the woman probably knows you're a woodworker who will appreciate and use the tools and so may prefer to sell to you at a cheaper price than she would sell to some stranger in a yard sale. If so, that would be fair.

Or she may not. She may check out ebay every day like thousands of other people do and mistakenly believe than anything made before last Tuesday is a "rare and valuable antique" and that woodworking tools are worth about the same as gold ingots.

If you make her an offer you believe is too low but she accepts it anyway, then the price isn't fair because you're going to end up feeling guilty or unhappy about it at some stage. She's happy so it's fair to her but it ain't fair to you!

If you make an offer that is too high, then you're unfairly reinforcing her own stupid expectations and being unfair to all us bottom feeders by adding to the upward pressure on prices.

Do you want or need the tools? Will you be selling any of them after you get them from her? Are you likely to make a genuine profit on re-sale (including costs of transport, storage, auction listing fees, flea sale fees etc). Would any profit be at a level you're comfortable with?

The best thing you casn do is offer her whatever price the tools are genuinely worth to you. This may well be about whatever the current market price is for a basement full of tools, or it could be quite different to the current market price for similar items.

Haggle a bit with her (up or down) so you can both feel that you've negotiated to an acceptable price.

If you strike a deal and nobody's holding a gun to your head at the time, then the price is fair.

regards

Angus Barclay

Re: Plane values

Mark Nowicki


>If you came to my house to do a rehab and "started looking things over" you would be fired on the spot. To be fair, ignore the tools. In addition, it is not professional to post information about the contents of a customers' house on the Internet.

Respectfully

Mark Nowicki

Re: Plane values, with moral considerations

bill tindall


>Seems like you are saying that you don't want to take advantage of this lady's ignorance. This seems to be a defensible position and I would not try to talk you out of feeling this way. Personally, it would detract from my enjoyment of a purchase if I thought I paid someone living on a SS check 1/10 of what it would have cost on ebay. On the other hand if I was the one living on the SS check I probably would think differently.

I have been in this situation buying lumber. I tell the wife what my wholesale cost for such lumber is and that is what I offer +/- any differential for effort. It is up to her to accept of not. Of course if the seller had just knowingly sold me a used car with a bad transmission then I would return the favor by offering 1/4 my wholesalse cost.

It would seem that ebay now provides an indication of the national if not international market retail value of anything listed.

Hey Mark

Bob Hackett


>How about lightening up there.

First of all,I was assessing the work that needed to be done starting from the foundation up when the tools were spotted,I thought that was clear.

Secondly,I was seeking advice about fair prices after speaking to the owner.Asking my friends here for info is a far cry from posting the contents of a customer`s home on the internet.At least I think so.

As far as being professional,I think craftsmanship and ethics lead the list(or should) as far as professional attributes go.I have no problem sleeping at nite and haven`t for years.the questions that started the thread point to why I can sleep soundly.

What is it that you do for a living?

Mainely,Bob

a little extreme?

bill tindall


>I think he said looking over, not snooping. We don't have the infrmation to conclude anyting unethical went on here, and I feel sure it did not.

Tend to agree.. . .

Steve Mackay


>Ignore them for the time being. Once your on great terms with her I'll bet SHE asks YOU about them ! Do her a stellar job and I bet you walk away with 'em. Sorry, but, been where you are !

Re: Fair Prices ?

Martin Shupe


>Two separate statements, Todd. I guess I should have put a line space in between.

I meant he should buy the tools before you found them and beat him to the punch.

Re: Plane values

Ernie Miller


>If the time comes I would let the lady know that you would like to purchase and use the tools depending on what she wants for them. I would not make an offer of a price. if she quotes you a price way to low you can offer to give her more if it makes you feal better if she wants to much make an offer that is more in line with what you want to pay. Making an offer could be bad for you real buisness so I would just let her know you are interested in them.

Sandbagging and the search for the greatest fool

woodburnbob


>If you're not familiar with the term, see the last paragraph of this.

I've noticed the cunning often rely on this technique, which, of course, made "Columbo" such a vernerable TV series.

We often assume we're the first to hear the line, "Gosh, you really think this is worth something?"

Several weeks ago I visited a couple I was friends with 30 years ago. In the intervening years they inherited the property and tools of a relative who was a machinist...after he died about 30 years ago.

They were now cleaning out the garage-shop and as I stood visiting and watching them work, I noticed an ancient but potentially functional SouthBend lathe in the 14X40 class with a number of accessories. It was last running...30 years ago...from an intact line shaft in the ceiling!

They wanted it gone. So they said. "What's it worth?" says he. "Five hundred", says I. "I wouldn't take a dime less than three thousand," say she, and then added, "I loved my uncle that much and couldn't part with it for less".

Later, the fellow explained they'd been trying to sell it for several years, had had lots of interest and offers, and had already turned down offers at twice it's fair market value (my opinion of fair market value). I was merely the latest fool to drop by.

Re: Plane values

Greg Sloop, Portland Oregon


>I like this response.

Frankly, I *really* like this response.

You don't risk offending by offering something she might consider terribly low. (based on reality or not...)

Once you have an offer, then like Ernie says, you could tell her that the given amount is just too low and that you'd feel more comfortable giving X instead.

One thing to remember. Every additional hitch in the transaction is an additional place for the customer to be dissatisfied. While I've done these things myself, I find I'm doing these kinds of things less and less often. Usually I'll simply try to do the deal with somone who isn't a client and with whom I don't have to worry about a soured relationship.

Cheers,

Greg

What's your opinion...

woodburnbob


>...on the following scenario:

A is somewhat motivated to sell object C. B is somewhat motivated to buy object C. The price at which the sale can happen is initially unknown to A and B.

A says "What will you offer?" B says "How much do you want?"

Secretly, A knows he would sell at $N1 or more. Secretly, B knows he would buy at $N2 or less.

It seems to me the first to state his limit ($N1 or $N2) is at a disadvantage in attempting to get the "best deal" AND complete the transaction successfully.

What is an argument to refute this assertion?

Re: Sandbagging and the search for the greatest fo

Todd Hughes


>I deal with idiots like this all the time, what I would have done once it became obvious that there was no way you were going to buy it is tell them..." $3,000 ?! Thats way to low last one I saw get sold went for $5,000 and that was to a dealer who was going to resell it"

This way you can pretty well be guaranteed they will never sell it and you might get a chance at it at thier estate sale auction...Todd

Re: Plane values

Greg Sloop, Portland Oregon


>Not specifically in reply to your message, just tangentially related.

Goodness...

When it's in search of the best tool deal - it's seller beware. No worrying about fair, just catch as catch can. (Could grandma be getting a lot more for her tools? "Who cares buddy, if you're stupid enough to sell 'em without knowing more, it's your hard luck.")

When it's a plane review, one would think the devil had gotten loose and those crafty rust hunters had suddenly devolved into bumbling babes in the woods - *completely* defenseless from being swooned and taken in by unscrupulous reviewers. (Who incidentally reveal full data about potential biases.)

Hmmmm... what's wrong with this picture?

[Shakes head and smiles wry smile about the crazy perspectives...]

-Greg

Re: What's your opinion...

Todd Hughes


>Sort of loss me with the A, B C $N1 stuff ...

A seller of somthing can certainly try to sell his stuff by saying "make me an offer" but I think in the real world not to many people are going to bite and he will probably miss out on buyers who might would have paid him what he really had in mind but instead just walk away because they don't know what he wants and am not going to play games. Also I doubt if there are any buyers that would make him an offer anywhere near what they would really pay so the seller could loose out even if he gets offers....If you would pay $25 for a Stanley no.3 plane and the seller asked you what you will give for it...who would say "$25" ?

My standard reply to sellers that won't give you a price is to say " How about a dollar" and go from there. Kind of interesting but many sellers that have no idea what they want for thier mechandise start to come up with a price rather quick....will add I have actually bought some stuff for $1 too!

...Just like it is the job of the buyer to know what they will pay it is also the job of the seller to know what they want...and believe me most sellers do and they are just trying to count on the buyer being stupid and offer them more......Todd

Looks like Rain

Todd Hughes


>Looks like it might rain this afternoon.....Oh I know it doesn't have anything to do with anything but as such just sort of fit in here I thought.....Todd

Re: Hey Mark

Mark Nowicki


>I am a specialized contractor. I am licenced (in addition, bonded and insured) by Quebec. My specialty is installation of windows and doors.

I graduated from Concordia University with a major in finace, minor in accounting, specifically cost accounting.

What will you do, Bob, if the "fair" price, however derived, is more than you are willing to pay?

Regards

Mark Nowicki

Re: Hey Mark

Bob Hackett


>If the fair price is more than I`m prepared to pay then I plan to offer to put her in touch with afew folks who may be interested.

I also will tell her what I was prepared to pay in case those folks with deeper pockets want to pay even less than I do.

MB

BTW-My wife(who owns the company)is also bonded and insured.

Let me try again

woodburnbob


>Sorry about the A,B,C. The nuns in grade school drilled us relentlessly with algebra, story problems and variables. It gave me a sort of permanent brain damage. Let me try this:

"Bill is somewhat motivated to sell his lathe. Bob is somewhat motivated to buy it. The price at which the sale can happen is initially unknown to Bill and Bob. They both know lathes and values.

Bill says "What will you offer?" Bob says "How much do you want?" Bill says "What would make you happy?" Bob says "What can you live with?" This stuff iterates.

Secretly, Bill knows he would sell at $900 or more. Secretly, Bob knows he would buy at $800 or less. It is possible that during the bargaining Bill or Bob might modify their initial monetary limits. They have in the past.

It seems to me the first to state his limit ($900 or $800)...or some "reasonable" percentage of it...is at a disadvantage in attempting to get the "best deal" AND complete the transaction successfully."

My question is whether or not you agree, Todd, the first to name a price puts himself at a disadvantage.

And, Todd, let's assume just for this example, that if Bob walks away when Bill won't immediately state a sales price, this means Bob's not actually motivated to try to buy the lathe: Simply walking away doesn't fit the example. Let's say Bob doesn't want to quit trying to buy the lathe until he knows Bill's lowest sales price. Let's also assume that a low-ball offer has always been taken as an insult and a dare by Bill, and becomes an immediate deal killer. Stubborn Bill moves his $900 secret sales price to $1500. A high-ball sales price from Bill has a similar effect on stubborn Bob, he drops his limit from $800 to $500.

All I'm talking about here is the game of face-to-face "dickering" technique.

I understand you normally walk away and don't dicker. Maybe you're the wrong one to ask, but I'm still curious what you think.

Re: selling

Moses Yoder in White Pigeon, MI


>You state that the first to name the price is at a "disadvantage", which is probably true. This just clarifies my thoughts on the subject, which I will keep in mind in the future.

If I own something and want to sell it, there are generally two reasons for selling it. 1) I want to get rid of it so it is not laying around, 2) I think it's nice but I would rather have the money to spend on something else. In either case, as the owner of the property I have the advantage, because I don't have to sell it. If I put a price on it, people can either pay the price or they don't buy the piece. We went to Meijers (a local supermarket) this afternoon and bought some groceries and a plant. There was not one single item out of thousands in the store that was not already priced. We were never even asked what we wanted to pay for the items we bought. Imagine getting a cart full of groceries and then going up to the counter and the cashier asking you "How much do you think this is worth?" Well, hang on a minute while I go check ebay prices so I can take the moral high road and make sure I give you a fair price. This scenario seems absolutely ridiculous to me, and probably to most people. If someone has something they want to sell, it is their responsibility to price it according to what they think it is worth or how much money they want to trade for the object. It is never the buyer's responsibility to offer a "fair price". If you want to be nice to someone and pay them full book value for mint condition in the box tools, that's a fine and nice thing to do. It is not a moral obligation. If someone is lazy, they will end up never having much of anything that is worth anything. That ends up being their problem, not mine.

Let me try to answer you (sorry for the length)

Ian in Sydney (on his notebook again)


>Jumping over your examples of dickering, but keeping to the basic example ...

Let me introduce the concept of "utility" and "preference"

Bill's preference if offered $899 is to keep the lathe.

For Bob the lathe has a utility equal to $800. If it costs $801, his preference is not to buy because in paying the extra $1, he misses out on being able to buy something else to which he attaches greater utility. So just for an example, if Bob has $801 his preference is to spend $800 on the lathe and $1 on gum.

In your example, Bill and Bob will never agree, because the utility values they individually assign to the lathe do not overlap. Bob will not pay more than $800 and Bill will not accept less than $900.

However, the more usual scenario is for Bill and Bob to negotite.

In this case, Bob's best strategy is to offer something less than what he is willing to pay (Bob's willingness to pay = the utility of the lathe to Bob), while Bill's is to ask for something more than what he is willing to accept.

He who goes firt has a small advantage, but it doesn't really matter that much. It's what happens after the firt bid that matters.

Bob might say "I'll give you $600", knowing that he can go to $800 before he walks from the deal. However, if Bob says "I'll give you $800" he must walk unless Bill replies "done". Otherwise he will pay more than what the lathe is worth to him, which a rational person wont do.

Now if Bill had opened "I'd like $1200 for the lathe"

Bob will likely do some quick sums -- $1200 is $400 more than what Bob is prepared to pay so if he offers $400 they can meet in the middle after making $100 adjustments, or if Bob offers $600 he can adjust his offer upwards by half of any amount Bill reduces his asking price. Pick a strategy.

Either way, for the transction to be "successful" (Bob gets the lathe and Bill gets the cash) they both have to agree that the final price is equal to or greater than the utility they individually put on the lathe.

So say that ultimately Bill will accept $840 and Bob will pay $860, if the final price is $850, the "rational" Bill is happy with his $10 "excess" and the "rational" Bob is happy with his $10 "saving"

clear as mud??

Ian