Starting cuts with 5 tpi ripsaw

Re: Starting cuts with 5 tpi ripsaw

Dean J in MN


>How low of an angle are you making when you start? Try to put more teeth on the wood when you start, then raise the angle once you have a kerf started.

-Dean

Re: Starting cuts with 5 tpi ripsaw

VTAndy4


>Thanks Dean. I'll give that a shot this afternoon.

Also, even with push saws I'm finding that it helps to start cuts by pulling -- is this bad form?

-Andy

Re: Starting cuts with 5 tpi ripsaw

Adam Cherubini


>Its not so much bad form as ineffective. We all do it. The extent that it helps is questionable. There are two problems, pitch and rake. A low angle of attack helps with both.

But in time you'll just learn to lift that toe with your wrist and really control that saw so you'll have very light pressure. I use very short strokes.

But most importantly, don't give up. Stick with it. It gets easier. That said, I think there's always a little fussing at the start of any saw cut.

Adam

P.S. look for my saw tooth article (out soon)

Re: Starting cuts with 5 tpi ripsaw

mikew


>Hi Andy,

Dean and Adam really filled you in more than I probably will. I also lower the saw and lift some of the weight off the toe.

Seeing how this is a non-backed rip saw, another option you can consider is to relax the rake beginning at the toe by a couple degree--doesn't need to be exact.

Just put a piece of tape below the toothline and beginning at the toe to about 3 inches from the toe. Begin at the end of the tape furthest from the toe. Make a pass with the saw file adding pressure towards the top of the tooth. Go to the toe end of the saw. Next pass, begin at the next tooth closer to the toe clear to the end. Next pass, begin on the next tooth closer to the toe. And so on.

Just use a light pressure on each pass, but concentrate that pressure towards the top of the tooth by lightly rotating the file.

What the goal is, is that as you look at the teeth from that 3" or so point from the toe, is each tooth as it gets closer to the toe will lean backwards just a skosh more than the previous tooth, until at the toe the tooth will lean back about 10 degrees or so.

Consider this a progressive rake which beginning at the toe blends in to the regular raked teeth where the bulk of the cutting happens.

Take care, Mike

Re: Starting cuts with 5 tpi ripsaw

Wayne Anderson


>I don't have much trouble with the start of a cut...it's the last bit that usually frustrates me. I try to make the last stroke a quick stroke, but even so, the drop too often takes with it a chunk from the "good piece". Supporting the drop piece isn't always an option. Not sure what the answer is here.

Wayne

Re: Starting cuts with 5 tpi ripsaw

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX


>Me, neither, Wayne. I bet it's the knife scoring (vs pencil lines) that helps a lot. So, do you knife a line or pencil?

Pam

Re: Starting cuts with 5 tpi ripsaw

Don McConnell


>Hi Andy,

As already in evidence, this kind of question inevitably evinces a variety of responses. In line with that, and to add a couple of data points, I thought I'd quote from a couple of 19th century sources. More food for thought if nothing else. :-)

From Charles Holtzapffel's _Turning & Mechanical Manipulation_, Vol. 2, "The Principles of Cutting Tools," 1846:

In a section on rip, hand, panel saws, etc., Holtzapffel writes:

"The saw is grasped in the right hand, and he left is applied to the board, in order that the end of the thumb may be placed just above the teeth and against the smooth blade of the saw, to guide it to the line; the saw is then drawn backwards a few inches, with light pressure, to make a slight notch, a short gentle down-stroke is then made almost without pressure. In the first few strokes, the length and vigour of the stroke of the saw are gradually increased, until the blade has made a cut of two to four inches in depth; after which the entire force of the right arm is employed, the saw is used from point to heel, and in extreme cases, the whole force of both arms is used to urge the saw forward. ..."

Somewhat later, W. F. M. Goss, in _Bench Work in Wood_, 1887, wrote:

"Handling the Saw. - The saw should be grasped firmly with the right hand, a better control of it being secured by extending the forefinger along the side of the handle. In starting a cut, the side of the saw should be pressed against the thumb of the left hand, which then acts as a guide ... . The saw must not be crowded against the work, but, on the contrary, to prevent the teeth from penetrating too deeply, its forward movement should be accompanied by a lifting of the wrist. The saw should always be moved with a long stroke, bringing as many teeth into action as possible. A short, jerky movement is at no time necessary or desirable. It is good practice for the beginner to keep up the proper motion of the saw, while maintaining a very light contact between it and the work. ..."

Possibly some ideas to try while you experiment to find what works best for you?

I don't believe the smaller teeth with less aggressive hook/pitch, some times found at the toe of saws, was for starting kerfs/cuts. My experience is that I have more control at the beginning of the cut if I use teeth closer to the handle. Rather, I think this feature is to ease the start of individual strokes once the (nearly) full length of the saw blade comes into play.

Don McConnell

Eureka Springs, AR

Re: Starting cuts with 5 tpi ripsaw

Warren in Lancaster, PA


>Andy, I hold the saw next to my thumb about 1/16" above the wood and start on the forward stroke. The saw is already moving by the time it hits the wood, and there is no preparatory backstroke. This method is fast and accurate, but takes some practice.

No matter what method you use, get a scrap piece and make beginning cuts every 1/8" along the ends on both sides.

Brilliant

Vlad


>I love reading your posts Don - very scholarly as usual.

Keep up the great work.

Vlad

Re: Starting cuts with 5 tpi ripsaw

VTAndy4


>I gave it another shot this afternoon.

Everyone who suggested that I should look at my angle of attack was totally right. I was starting at an angle that was way too steep.

I also tried the suggestion of using my thumb to guide the saw as I start the cut. This really helped prevent some of the wildness that sent the toe in every direction before the initial cuts began.

For the first time, I also tried a Japanese saw today.

It's all very eye-opening. I think that I'm going to focus on sawing skills for a while.

Thanks to everyone for the suggestions. I really enjoy threads like this where various approaches to technique are discussed.

-Andy

Re: Starting cuts with 5 tpi ripsaw

Richard Gillespie, Jr.


>For me, the left behind chunk hasn't been as much a problem in rip operations as it is in cross cuts. Recently, saw a picture of a cross cut being done where the piece being cut was clamped to the bench as well as an extension piece being clamped to both ends of the board. This was so that it wouldn't drop off as the cut was nearly completed. You would have to be careful so that the extension piece didn't interfere with the saw. I could see that this procedure might reduce or eliminate that left behind chunk.

Also

Dan Donaldson


>If yo want to do handcut dovetails, the sawing is the main ingredient to good ones.

Re: Starting cuts with 5 tpi ripsaw

paul womack


>I also tried the suggestion of using my thumb to guide the saw as I start the cut. This really helped prevent some of the wildness that sent the toe in every direction before the initial cuts began.

Don't forget the wonderful detail-in-passing from Don's great post:

...in order that the end of the thumb may be placed just above the teeth and against the smooth blade of the saw ..

Rip teeth hurtling past skin could be bad ;-)

BugBear

Re: Starting cuts with 5 tpi ripsaw

Ron Smith


>I did not see mention of this technique, but it works for me whether rip or cross-cut, pull or push . . . . Just give the start point a good whack with a chisel. This will ease starting by putting more teeth in the cut and go a long ways toward assuring super accurate placement of the cut.

Re: Starting cuts with 5 tpi ripsaw

Dave Anderson Chester, NH


>That's an excellant tip. I use it quite often. Just make sure you orient the chisel so that the bevel is facing the waste side of the cut. This causes a vertical slice on the good side and the angled chisel cut disappears in the form of sawdust and ends up as the kerf.