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Modifying a handplane!

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Modifying a handplane!

#1

Modifying a handplane!

Lee Schierer, McKean, PA


>Compared to modern planes like Lie Nielson and others, I've noticed that my 50 year old Miller Falls and Stanley planes have a lot of play in the lever that raises and lowers the iron. If you get it too far out, you have to back the thumbscrew up a long way before it actually raises the iron and basically you start over trying to get a precise depth of cut.

What would you think about:

a) drilling a larger hole in the frog and putting a larger pin through the lever so it fits tigher and doesn't have as much slop?

Or

b) would it be better to stay with the existing pin diameter and put a bushing in the hole in the raise/lower lever to take out the slop?

Or

c) leave it alone and just live with the adjsutment as it is?

Lee

Re: Modifying a handplane!

#2

I vote for option c ...

Jerry Nicholson


>and for fine work I use an LV bevel up smoother and an LV bevel up jack plane.

I don't have any Miller Falls planes but my Sargents have a lot more backlash than my Stanleys, for what that is worth.

Jerry

Re: Modifying a handplane!

#3

Re: Modifying a handplane!

Ernie Miller


>Lee I have a box O frogs and other parts I can send you one and you can play with that one so you don't do any thing that might ruin you good frog to the point you have a useless plane. I think they are mostly #4 & 5 frogs.

Re: Modifying a handplane!

#4

Re: Modifying a handplane!

Joel Graboski


>I kept mine in a jar, quieter and no water leaked.

Re: Modifying a handplane!

#5

hmmm....

Bryan in Broad Ripple, IN


>I'm not sure I follow what you are suggesting. It's been my experience that the backlash in the older planes is mainly a function of the fit between the tip of the 'Y' lever and the slot in the chip breaker. I suppose a sloppy groove in the adjustment wheel that engages the arms of the 'Y' lever could also be an issue as well, but to a lesser degree.

I'm not sure I follow what you are describing in terms of installing a bigger pin. Do you mean the pin that secures the 'Y' lever to the frog? If so, then I I doubt that your remedy would make much of a difference.

An easy remedy (although very hit or miss) is to try a different chip breaker. If you find a chipbreaker with a tighter slot, it will reduce the backlash. Perhaps an aftermarket chip-breaker may have a narrower slot.

-Bryan

Re: Modifying a handplane!

#6

Re: Adjusting / sharpening handplanes

Moses Yoder in White Pigeon, MI


>Lee, at the gathering you asked me to tell you what you were doing wrong, and I never really took the time to look at what you were doing and try to give you some pointers. I don't really think that I know much about hand planes, but will post the few things that I have kind of learned and see if anyone can use it. It would be very time consuming to teach someone how to use a hand plane unless you already had a curriculum set up and were organized. So I will try to start at point A and work forward.

1) A number of things work together in a plane, but the main thing is the iron. (The "blade" on a plane is called an iron.) The rest of the plane is simply used to hold the iron in position. Several points on irons; a) the type of steel is important, but the way the iron is hardened and tempered is more important. This is why I buy Hock irons to replace my old Stanley blades. Ron Hock knows a lot about hardening and tempering steel, and I get very consistent and predictable results with his irons. b) The way the iron is sharpened is very important

2)Sharpening; a) It is very important to use a flat surface for honing the iron. If the edges of your honing surface ar worn down slightly more than the center, you will get a very slight (unnoticeable) curve upwards at the center of your iron, so the corners of the iron will be removing more wood than the center of the iron. This is undesirable for a number of reasons. If the center of your honing surface is worn down, you will get unpredictable results from honing, unless you use it as such intentionally (there are exceptions to every rule).

3) The honed surface of the iron should be a flat plane, not curved at all. If the tip of the iron curves upward slightly, the area immediately behind the edge can make contact with the wood before the front of the iron does, which will lead to thick shavings. I am referring to an almost microscopic detail; the very tip of the iron only makes contact when it is extended a small distance from the bottom of the plane, which then pulls it down into the wood, making thicker shavings than a properly honed iron.

4) The back of the iron, up to the tip of the cap iron, needs to be polished to the same degree as the honed front edge of the iron. In my opinion, the first time this is done will take some time to achieve correctly. I think a water stone tends to dish out too fast to actually flatten the back of the iron, so I am using 150 grit drywall screen on plate glass for the inital flattening, then 220 grit sandpaper on glass, then final honing of the back on the water stones.

5) The toe, heel, and area in front of the mouth of the plane needs be on a flat plane (the "sole" of the plane) . In my experience with Stanley planes the problem I have found most often is that the area that is milled out behind the mouth for the front of the frog to contact is bowed down slightly. If you set a straight board on edge in a vice, then retract the iron on the plane, set the plane's toe on the edge of the board and push it forward until the back of the mouth hits the end of the board, just like you were jointing it. Often times you will feel a slight "bump" when the back of the mouth hits the end of the board. This means that the iron has to be extended further than it should be in order for the plane to make continuos contact. It will start to plane a bit, then the area behind the mouth raises it up out of the wood. If the iron is extended slightly further so it protrudes under this slightly raised area, the plane will appear to be working fine but will be unable to take a very thin shaving. This is why it is very imortant to flatten the sole with the frog and iron installed. Again, it is not necessary for the entire sole ot the plane to be flat; just the areas that count.

6) The iron needs to be held securely. If the frog is not bedded correctly, it can bend down slightly from the pressure of the iron biting into the wood. An iron that moves from the pressure of hitting the wood will lead to frustrating results. This will also prevent it from taking thin shavings.

7) Adjusting the plane a) It is beneficial on cast iron bench planes to make sure the area of the frog that the iron contacts is smooth and also waxed. I smooth mine as much as possible without removing the lateral adjust lever, and then wax the frog with paste wax. I will generally wipe a little bit of wax onto the iron when I hone it, so it will adjust smoothly. b) To the point of the original question, I think theoretically it is probably impossible to eliminate "backlash". In both wooden bodied and cast planes it is normal to adjust the plane by extending the iron, not by retracting it. If you retract the iron and then plane, it will almost surely be pushed back into the plane when it first hits the wood. I adjust a plane by first extending the iron until it "feels" close to right by running my thumb front to back over the mouth of the plane. I then run it it over the board at the edge of the iron, checking both sides of the iron to see if either side hits. I then make lateral adjustments until both sides of the iron appear to be taking the same thickness of shaving. If I need a thinner shaving, I can then retract the iron slight into the plane, and then adjust it forward until it is taking the shaving I want at the center of the iron.

This is of course not the final word on planing, and I think the lever and gears used for iron adjustment is one area where planes could be vastly improved if someone thought they could make money by selling a better plane. But in my opinion, modifying the standard cast bench plane to try and eliminate backlash would be an excercise in frustration. Two books I would highly recommend are David Charlesworth's book that has a section on tuning hand planes (I would buy this book over any other) and Garret Hack's book "The Hand Plane Book", which covers a large number of different planes and how to use them.

Re: Modifying a handplane!

#7

Re: Modifying a handplane!

Dave Thompson


>Hey Lee, I don't think I've seen any Bailey style frog that didn't have some amount of slop in the depth adjuster, though may vary a bit. If you think this is bad, just imagine adjusting the depth on a woodie, when smacking the top and back isn't an option or doesn't quite do it.

Personally, I just get use to it. If the wheel screw is clean and oiled, it should spin quickly and easily out of the backlash. When you feel the slight resistance change, give it a tiny depth adjustment turn.

As Bryan mentioned, the slop in depth adjustment has to do with the slop in the lever cap slit, and also the slop between yoke (Y thingie) and the depth wheel groove. Engineering this better seems like a lot of futzing, though it should be only one time for the life of the plane.

good luck,

Dave

Re: Modifying a handplane!

#8

Doh. I meant chip breaker slit, not lever cap slit

Dave Thompson

Re: Modifying a handplane!

#9

Re: Modifying a handplane!

James Watriss


>Ah, backlash. My constant friend, and unwavering foe.

One thing to check is the thickness of the iron. I've found that thicker irons make for more backlash. Farther away from the yoke, the yoke gets thinner, and it has to move more to engage the hole in teh chip breaker. I've had a plane or two where I used a thicker replacement blade, and got a lot of backlash as a result. It was a worth-while sacrifice, because it was a thick L-N blade, and a thick L-N chip-breaker, so the plane performed admirably. IT did prompt me to think about doing this though:

-Find a replacement chip-breaker. For cheap, if possible, unless you're sold on the new, thicker ones that are so, so cool.

-Find someone with a brazing torch. Fill the yoke hole, and grind the fill material flush with the surfaces of hte chip breaker.

-Re-drill, with a smaller drill bit. Make sure hte hole is just a wee too small for the yoke to fit through.

-Using jeweler's files, round the edges of the new hole. No sense having sharp edges that will only serve to wear on your yoke, and make things worse.

-While you're braking those edges, file it out until the yoke JUST fits.

That shoudl take the slop out. And it's a lot less risky than f!**ing around with your frog. If you screw it up, no worries, fill it again, start over. If you pooch your frog, well...

It's easier to find a replacement chip breaker, I think. And worst-case scenario, you can use the original while you futz with the new one.

Re: Modifying a handplane!

#10

D: None of the above...

Scott Burr in Ben Lomond, CA


>Shim the adjusting nut/screw to take up some slop. A split nylon washer or "C", "E" clips will work also. Just place them around the nut where the yoke fits. Sometimes you need to back the nut out to disengage the yoke enough to slip the little buggers into place.

Re: Modifying a handplane!

#11

ooh, I like it.... good idea.

Dave Thompson

Re: Modifying a handplane!

#12

Common Frog idiosyncracies

David Charlesworth


>Moses,

Thank you for mentioning my books!

Re points 6 & 7.

I frequently find that the surface of the frog, where it supports the heel of the bevel of the blade, is not flat in its width. If hollow, the centre of the blade is not supported and may chatter.

Frog seating or contact with the body casting is often as little as 10 per cent. Sometimes the contact is only on two corners and sometimes the centre is not supported at all. We use a combination of hand scraping and final "grinding in" with silicon carbide lapping grits to perfect contact. Usually we can get 90 to 100 per cent fit with some patience.

So glad tht you mentioned flattening, after Frog fixing, (with blade loaded and working tensions set) as this causes the bumps behind the throat, which are almost universal.

Backlash is a minor irritation, which one soon gets accustomed to. All blade setting must be done in the out direction. So when settting a finer shaving, retract fully and ease the blade out while taking test shavings off an edge of scrap wood kept for this purpose.

Have just had two woodworkers on my plane tuning course who had both been making for 40 years. They were both astounded at the improvements we made to the performance of their old stanley planes.

best wishes,

David Charlesworth

Re: Modifying a handplane!

#13

Re: D: None of the above...

Joe Rogers, Northern Virginia


>I've thought abot those spiral locks for piston pins in engines. they are flat and wind around several times so there is no gap in the coverage where the yoke would hit. Have't found a correct size yet. I'll keep looking.JR

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