The Orange Block Plane � a review

Re: Not so sure

Greg Sloop, Portland Oregon


>Just joshing you Bill... :)

I've got a lot of respect for anyone that can make any of the "S" stuff work - esp. if it works as well as the L and V stuff. I know I've not had much luck. It may just be my impatience and lack of mojo for tuning the old stuff, but whatever the cause, I've not been impressed.

But it all comes back to - "what works for you." At this point in my life, time is my most scarce commodity. I'll gladly pay a bit more to have something that works the first time without a lot of fuss.

Cheers,

Greg

I liked Marple chisels

Dave Thompson


>They did well for me until the one night I was pounding out a mortise probably a little too late. My face was probably a little too close, and I shouldn't have had that wood mallet with the rounded edges. A poor hit, and the mallet slid off the polypropylene butt, and smack dead-on into my nose. That was a gumption killer and ended my mortise making for the night.

Ever since then, it's been wood butts, and square edged mallets for me in the shop. I suppose, I could have learned to keep my face further back, and or not pound on mortices when after a certain level of fatigue...

Actually, I still use them regularly for carpentry....

enjoy,

Dave

Re: Adam, my limited experience says...

Thom D


>"Apologies to all the naysayers, but the quality planes out there on the market right now didn't come out of the blue, they came on the market because of the known limitations of the offerings of the past. Progress, you know?"

I think they are market driven, how sensible the current market is, is another mater.

A2 and similar, I have yet to see anything like 6x the performance, that some are claiming. O1 is a good steel and it is just about equal to the cast tools of the 19th century. Easy to sharpen good edge holding. Japanese tools are not surpassed by any modern tools unless yo want to dry grind.

The known limitations are only in the junk that flooded the market in the end of days. I don't see that old wooden tools are being superceded by LV or LN or the older Japanese, Chinese, etc... tools, and certainly not based on the work. There are a lot of people buying expensive tools today but there isn't all that much amazing hand work to match them. I think people are looking for security as with a table saw. they want tools that minimize the skill input for the performance output. Hard to ague with that.

As Morse said speaking of Japan in the 19th C., but he could have been speaking about various factions today, I don't think the main rift is east west:

"When I see one of our carpenter's ponderous tool-chests, filled to repletion with several hundred dollar's worth of highly polished and elaborate machine-made implements, and contemplate the work often done with them, - with everything binding that should go loose, and everything rattling that shoulbe tight, and much work that has to be done twice over, with an indication everywher of poverty of ideas,- and then recall the Japanese carpenter with his ridiculously light and flimsy tool-box containing the a meagre assortment of rude and primative tools, -considering the carpentry of the two people, I am forced to the conviction that civilization and modern appliances count as nothing..."

So these discussions have been ongoing without much conclusion for a long time.

Re: Adam, my limited experience says...

Derek Cohen (in Perth Australia)


>Hi Denis

There is a strong argument to buy and use the best tools one can afford. In terms of quality, one generally does get what one pays for. We often talk about planes being a "kit" and that some require more and others less preparation to obtain the potential within. We are aware that, generally speaking, we need to pay more to do less to the kit.

But what if we cannot afford more? What if The Orange Block Plane is all you have, is all you can afford, or all you are prepared to spend? Does this mean that you, a hobbiest, must not attempt fine woodworking? Do you convince yourself that you must settle for a lower outcome level?

I am fortunate that I have so many nice tools from which to choose. Sometimes I want to get rid of them all and go back to basics (Nah, don't start queueing up :>) ). The point is that it is all too easy to limit one's ability and imagination with the perceived effectiveness range of a tool. In this case less (tool power) equals more (creativity).

The fact that a LN or LV or Hock blade will outlast a Stanley or Groz blade is really meaningless unless you are under pressure of time constraints, or lack patience to hone, or are a perfectionist. There was a time when I did not know that my Stanley blades were crap. All I knew is that they planed wood and created the shape I wanted. And if they left tearout on Jarrah, then I used a cardscraper. These days I can have a plane and blade combination that leaves a faultless surface, seems to keep an edge indefinitely, and did all this out-of-the-box. I do value this level of quality in a tool, but I also have mixed feelings about a new woodworker starting out with such tools. On the one hand it gets more into the hobby, but on the other they miss out on important learning and education.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Re: Adam, my limited experience says...

Deirdre Saoirse Moen


>I have two reasons for preferring to purchase new LN and LV tools (or other current toolmaker's tools) over older ones:

1) ready to go. While I can fettle a plane, I've discovered that, by and large, I don't enjoy doing it.

2) supports current toolmakers. I rather enjoy that there's current toolmakers and want to keep it that way.

Okay, there's a third:

3) shiny.

Re: As an Irishman,,,

William Duffield, on the Cohansey


>That's witty, within the context of this discussion.

However, I feel it is my duty to remind you that we strongly discourage discussions of religion and politics on WoodCentral, because they can rapidly degenerate into lots of bad feelings.

Curiously, Adam and some other hand tool woodworkers I know and admire, study and build furniture in a period and style that (on this side of the Pond, at least) is called "William and Mary", after William of Orange. [This link is provided for historical context only. I neither agree nor disagree with any of the historical facts or opinions stated in the article or any linked article.]

As long as we are respectfully discussing the history of styles of furniture and woodworking traditions, or the colors that planes are painted, we remain on safe ground.

Regards, William (No relation)

Re: Adam, my limited experience says...

Thom D


>"I have two reasons for preferring to purchase new LN and LV tools (or other current toolmaker's tools) over older ones:

1) ready to go. While I can fettle a plane, I've discovered that, by and large, I don't enjoy doing it."

My days of hand grinding bad metal planes are behind me. On the other hand I can make a plane in 45 minutes and that is less than what it takes me to go to the local LV to pick one up. That really has nothing to do with how I actually behave, but it's a thought. (and on a BS allert basis, I usually can find my car keys faster than the stuff I need to make a plane)

"2) supports current toolmakers. I rather enjoy that there's current toolmakers and want to keep it that way."

I already gave at the ofice on this one. Been pouring money into lee valley since about '78, and not even a christmas card to show for it. :0)

"Okay, there's a third:

3) shiny. "

I know what you mean. Hard to beat that poured, catalyzed poly finish on my wood projects either.

Just joking. There was a time when these various arguments made some sense, nowadays it's all good.

In the last few months I have bought a quite a few new LV tools from amoung their planes and spokeshaves etc... My old Kuntz packed it in and the price for the set of three was too good to pass. And so forth... (Is it a coincidence when a Kuntz I bought at LV 20 years ago snaps just when LN is introducing their own line of sokeshaves?). Never been a better time to be buying tools.

It's summer and I'm not crabby about how cold these metal tools are in the winter, or how heavy they are when it comes to peeling back some serious shavings...

Re: I liked Marple chisels

Thom D


>I am having a little difficulty picturing this. Sounds like you were mortising your forehead.

Re: Adam, my limited experience says...

Deirdre Saoirse Moen


>Well, as far as making planes, I did let the glue dry overnight, so it was more like 24 elapsed hours for the one I made. :)

And no, it's not a coincidence that your Kunz spokeshave snapped just as LN was introducing there. It's all as it was intended. It knew you really didn't want it any more. I have a Boggs spokeshave myself, which I finally gave a whirl on a project tonight.

There are some old tools I really love (and won't replace terribly soon), but I do like the new ones. Fortunately, I live in a warm enough area that I don't have to worry about sub-freezing temperatures on tools.

Re: I don't get it

paul womack


>I don't get why you guys seem to think this review is a joke. This is the best Derek review I've ever read.

If we rephrase "is a joke" to "is amusing", there's no contradiction.

Humour that expresses truth has a long and noble history.

BugBear

Re: I don't get it

Jeff Weaver


>As a friend of mine is fond of saying, "It ain't the arrow, it's the indian."

Re: Adam, my limited experience says...

Thom D


>Is it the LV Boggs or the LN Boggs? I have the former, and it's a beut, nicer than the new spokeshave they came out with but one can't have too many sole options, or at least I don't have them yet.

You got me there there is the glue drying, though they say it is ready to go in 30 minutes, and there is always CA glue. I am moving over to mortised planes mostly, but I haven't those down to a reasonable speed yet. When I do it will be due to the application of large amounts of electricity and cast iron.

Re: I liked Marple chisels

Dave Thompson


>Ha! Maybe that would have helped! ;-)

Yeah, it was probably 7 years ago, and I can no longer remember the circumstance of why the mortise would have been so high up. Probably was sitting on stool next to the bench.

Dave

As I always, always, always say:

HC Sakman @ Victoria, BC


>Every horse runs depending on its jockey!

Chico...

Re: Adam, my limited experience says...

Denis Ch�nard, Orl�ans, Ont.


>" I think they are market driven, how sensible the current market is, is another mater."

Nothing new here! Planes (and basically all products) are all market driven, they're not made for fame and glory... As for how sensible the current market is, that's a personal opinion, but I'll just say that history is littered with questionable products that sold against our personal standards of value/performance/utility...

" A2 and similar, I have yet to see anything like 6x the performance, that some are claiming. O1 is a good steel and it is just about equal to the cast tools of the 19th century. Easy to sharpen good edge holding. Japanese tools are not surpassed by any modern tools unless yo want to dry grind."

I don't have enough experience with the various tool steels to argue here (most of of my tools use A2), but from what I've seen A2 does last longer between sharpenings than O1, I don't know exactly how much longer (but I'd say at least twice). As for ease of sharpening, I've never found it to be a problem.

I have a hard time believing that LV uses A2 only for marketing purposes, and that TLN switched to A2 from O1 for the same reason...

As far as Japanese tools are concerned, if they were so superior, how come they don't own the tool market? I must say that I like their saws, though.

" The known limitations are only in the junk that flooded the market in the end of days. I don't see that old wooden tools are being superceded by LV or LN or the older Japanese, Chinese, etc... tools, and certainly not based on the work. There are a lot of people buying expensive tools today but there isn't all that much amazing hand work to match them. I think people are looking for security as with a table saw. they want tools that minimize the skill input for the performance output. Hard to ague with that."

Ahhh... The good old days, when everything was better... Reminds me of people complaining that they don't make cars the way they used to. I say, Thank God! The old cars were polluting, gas guzzling, under-performing, unreliable death traps...

As for the quantity of "amazing" hand work done these days, don't forget that woodworking was just about dead three or four decades ago, it's normal for the amount of good work done since its revival doesn't match the centuries of work done in the past...

" As Morse said speaking of Japan in the 19th C., but he could have been speaking about various factions today, I don't think the main rift is east west:

"When I see one of our carpenter's ponderous tool-chests, filled to repletion with several hundred dollar's worth of highly polished and elaborate machine-made implements, and contemplate the work often done with them, - with everything binding that should go loose, and everything rattling that shoulbe tight, and much work that has to be done twice over, with an indication everywher of poverty of ideas,- and then recall the Japanese carpenter with his ridiculously light and flimsy tool-box containing the a meagre assortment of rude and primative tools, -considering the carpentry of the two people, I am forced to the conviction that civilization and modern appliances count as nothing..."

So these discussions have been ongoing without much conclusion for a long time."

You're right, tools don't replace proper training and craftsmanship. People who buy lots of tools buy them because they can afford it. It doesn't make them better craftsmen. But the availability of good tools can make a difference to a budding woodworker. If one starts with inferior tools, often when things don't work he will assume that the problem is with him instead of the tools, and might drop woodworking altogether, or switch to machines and sandpaper...

Ironically, it's the experienced hand tool users that can get inferior tools to work...

DC

Re: Adam, my limited experience says...

Deirdre Saoirse Moen


>I have the LN Boggs.

As a German, Irish and English American

david.marcus.brown


>I don't get it, where's the humor in the flag? I found a site that has images of countries flags and that one's not shown. Nor does it look like a conglomeration of any other flags.

Regarding the Admin's post and political correctness, it's a shame that things do readily degenerate and eliminates most opportunities for satire, sarcasm or wit.

Re: Adam, my limited experience says...

Thom D


>"As for how sensible the current market is, that's a personal opinion, but I'll just say that history is littered with questionable products that sold against our personal standards of value/performance/utility... "

It's like senior's golf clubs, there are some people for whom they are ideal, but not what a pro would generally use. .

"I don't have enough experience with the various tool steels to argue here (most of of my tools use A2), but from what I've seen A2 does last longer between sharpenings than O1, I don't know exactly how much longer (but I'd say at least twice). As for ease of sharpening, I've never found it to be a problem."

I think you nailed it, a 300 percent over-representation sounds about right. Of course, like golf clubs you can make a swing machine with a given acceleration that makes your golf club more accurate and longer than the competitors. Just as they can do in reverse. So nobody is necessarily lying. Maybe there is a wood out there and a sharpening method that makes the A2 shine. I don't see a process advantage to A2, but it's not bad enough take out of use. The overall cycle does not seem better but it might be. Sharpening can be tailored to the given material, so as long as I don't mind facing a different process for every tool in the shop, it's all good.

"I have a hard time believing that LV uses A2 only for marketing purposes, and that TLN switched to A2 from O1 for the same reason..."

Well you may be in for a surprise. I feel both organizations have impeccable integrity. I think Rob as much as said the A2 decision was driven by the market and he preferred carbon (I hope I'm right, I am recalling a recent thread where I posted an HC brakerless blade I had made for an LV plane). If that is what people want, give it to them.

"As far as Japanese tools are concerned, if they were so superior, how come they don't own the tool market? I must say that I like their saws, though."

What market are we talking about, when we get above a worm's eye view of things even Home Depot has Japanese saws, the chisels are way better and a rocking deal but they are just too expensive for what a lot of the market feels it deserves. What basically happens is people buy tools that reflect their feeling about themselves, not the tools. Kids get bikes with training wheels and later BMX bikes, then if they live to a reduced stage, out come the trikes again. People feel they can make use of even pretty expensive planes. I mean sharpening aside a plane is easier to use than a skill saw any day. It's a chisel with training wheels, usually in and out of plane. Now when it comes to handsaws and chisels people don't feel they deserve the good stuff but it is out there waiting for them when the day comes. As bad as they may be with chisels, the average woodworker is an old world craftsman compared to the average knife user, and yet there are any number of people chasing down multi thousand dollar knives and swords, for some reason the permission slip is in place. Now if you go to places where they use tools a lot, like maybe a guitar factory in California as on the Shop Tour videos that Stu Mac does, all of a sudden the average blue collar guy feels the right, and the chisels they are reaching for are Japanese.

So I think the Japanese tools do own a lot of the market they are designed for.It's just a small market for now.

"Ahhh... The good old days, when everything was better... Reminds me of people complaining that they don't make cars the way they used to. I say, Thank God! The old cars were polluting, gas guzzling, under-performing, unreliable death traps..."

The way I would put it is to say that it's as though "they" decided to endlessly produce the Model T ford. The market is morphing in interesting ways, a lot of it still has to do with training wheels. We are still a long way form the toolbox of the old days when cabinetmakers were not put off by any details. Molding planes aren't even on the horizon though in the period of my involvement the fancier furniture has made a comback outside the workshop. So however sophisticated the modern tools may be it's a pretty narrow palate.

"As for the quantity of "amazing" hand work done these days, don't forget that woodworking was just about dead three or four decades ago, it's normal for the amount of good work done since its revival doesn't match the centuries of work done in the past..."

I have ample respect for all participants, at all levels. I never would have believed the transition from the Handy Familly projects in PM to dovetails today. People are picking up speed quickly. And the tools are getting more sophisticated all the time.

Quality does not equal marketshare

wilbur


>"As far as Japanese tools are concerned, if they were so superior, how come they don't own the tool market?"

Because there is often little correlation between the quality of a product and what the market will wind up buying.

Here is a list of things that I've been willing to pay more for, because of higher perceived quality on my part, than most of my friends, who think I'm nuts as far as these things are concerned:

Audio equipment

Macs, instead of PCs (and I'm not trying to start a computer flame war)

Bicycles, both road and mountain

Guitars

Good produce, meat, and fish

And woodworking equipment, of course. :@)

And I must stress, I am nowhere near the "high-end" as far as these items are concerned. For example, my stereo system is built around a tube preamp and amp, CD player and speakers which cost me about $2200 total about 10 years ago. Thhis is chump change to the high-end audio fanatics, who could easily spend 10 times that on their systems, but it is also much more than what most of my friends would even consider spending on a music system that won't even give you surround sound. And it's not that my friends can't tell the difference between my system and the one they got from Best Buy -- they just are not that interested in audio equipment.

I think that most people who are passionate about their hobbies/interests have very similar feelings as far as this issue is concerned. We all get tunnel vision regarding our passions. With all of my hobbies mentioned above, I often wondered why the average person wouldn't want to spend two grand on a stereo system. I also wonder why some of my friends spend as much money as they do on a car. It's just a matter of where your priorities are.

So back to the Japanese plane marketshare issue -- I'm sure that if the public knew how good a Japanese (or a LN, LV, etc.) plane could be, they STILL wouldn't dominate the market. Why? Because most people won't pay more than $20-30 for a plane, no matter how good it may be. For better or for worse, the "tool market" is not people interested in woodworking as it is discussed here -- it's really the people going to Home Depot/Lowes/Sears every weekend to get something that will just get a job done.

Re: Quality does not equal marketshare

Thom D


>I agree with you.

The cost of japanese tools is not high. Harrelson used to have a far broader price list on his site with hundreds of different brands of plane iron many of them quite cheap. One of the most useful and very good quality irons I have was purchased from LV for just over 10 bucks around 1980, could probably be purchased for 30 bucks today. Japanese tools really aren't expensive any more, so whatever the reason for the lack of appeal I don't thin cost has anythign much to do with it. Possibly the BS that has been spread about to justify the tourist level prices on some tools has a role to play. I think the average NA craftsman has a pretty good BS meter.

Obviously you are right that cost repels non-woodworkers. The better western tools, Independence saws, Barr chisels, LN planes, are all more expensive than a higher quality kit of Japanse tools. Anyway who cares, I got mine and if nobody else cares to buy theirs it's not ruinning my day.