damascus steel knife blanks *LINK*

Re: damascus steel knife blanks *LINK*

David Barnett - SW Florida


>Usually, it would be more proper to call it pattern-welded, but yes, the stuff's been around for years, and yes, it can be hand forge-welded. Billets are available from many knifemaking supply houses. Cable damascus is made from cable, wouldn't ya know, and was a favorite variant for beginners. There's also stainless damascus if you're worried about rust. And if you were to make a woodworking tool, say, a marking knife, skew chisel or plane iron from the stuff, you wouldn't be the first.


Knifemaking forums, galleries, and so on.

Re: damascus steel knife blanks

Todd Hughes


>Most if not all of this Damascus that you see in these commercial blades are being made overseas in India or Pakastain I believe and from the ones I have seen are of very low quality with many flaws. I would imagine it is made using power hammers and forge welding the stock together in the same way as any most any other Damascus that you are likely to see.While maybe some custom knife makers may hand forge the blade out of the Damascus bar I would be very surprised if any make the bar by hand and don't use a power hammer.

I apprenticed several years under one of the top Damascus makers in the USA who specialised in 7 bar composit knives. Even with a very experanced maker like this quite a few blades would get tossed when during grinding a flaw was brought to the surface.This always made me think what about the welding flaws that are further in the knife that you couldn't see, eh?

...I have at knife shows seen many Damascus knives, some with big prices, that had flaws in the welds and pattern.While obvious to me since I knew what I was looking at the seller was banking on that they would not be obvious to the buyer.Once had a person show me a knife he had just bought and thought was so beautiful with an unusual pattern till I pointed out what he thought was so nice was actually poor open welds.Would be like a piece of furnture made out of a maple board with a big crack in it.

...Damscus or Pattern welded steel was devoloped originaly because that steel was of low quality and scarce /expensive. I never could really understand the advantage Damscus steel has over a properly made solid steel knife while I do see some disadvantages.I do understand that some people think it is prettier.

...The fellow that I apprenticed under once told me if those old Vikings or Japanese had ready access to Ford truck springs they never would have made the steel they did.....Todd

Springs 'n' things

David Barnett - SW Florida


>"The fellow that I apprenticed under once told me if those old Vikings or Japanese had ready access to Ford truck springs they never would have made the steel they did."

Ha! Were Ford springs 5160 that's called OCS (Old Chevy Spring) steel by knifemakers? Or is it maybe the simpler shallower-hardening 0160, because I'd sure like to find more of that stuff, which I consider the p�t� de foie gras of older low-Cr steels.

I agree that apart from appearance Damascus is disappointing and a whole lot of effort (and I really loathe that crappy-Paki-MacDamascus that's flooded the kitsch knife market). For the layered aesthetic (without a cutting edge, of couse) I'll take Mokume Gane anyday, which can be eutectically joined in a simple kiln between torsion plates.

Re: damascus steel knife blanks

scott grandstaff


>Yeah, I'm with you Todd

I see superlative damascus from time to time supposed to make a good edge, and the best pattern welded is gorgeous to look at, but the novelty wears off the ordinary stuff really fast. At least it did for me.

It looks cool though and seems like it'd make a great structural steel. Brian made his beautiful rabetting chariot infill from it (a long in the planning and long in the making project we talked about for months at the time) and Wayne just made the gorgeous large chariot that sports a brass lining behind the damascus. A new departure.

For plane bodies I think its really really fine, and tough! Ordinary soft steel or brass is actually incredibly fragile with any little bump or scratch showing so easy.

He'd probably kill me re-sizing and posting this low rez image so mum's the word now, and I mean it!

yours, Scott

That's purdy! I won't tell a soul...

Scott Burr in Ben Lomond, CA

Re: damascus steel knife blanks

Thom D


>Damascus is jus like dovetails, there are machines that make it, usually a press or rolling mill, and there are people who love to make it by hand. There are many amateurs that like to make it and do excellent work just as there are amateur woodworkers who make beautiful dovetails and don't care about profit.

You can tell up to a point if it was hand forged. A hand forged knife may have the damascus forged into the pattern of the knife. So it's like a spoon sawn out a of knees where the grain closely follow the shape of the spoon, vs. a spoon saw out of bard stock with a lot of grain run-out. Of course it is possible a person might make a nice damascus billet and sell it to a maker (there are some wo just like making the damascus), and that maker might grind it with lots or littel sensitivity to the material.

As far as ford springs are concerned, I doubt that is true, There are some knives idealy suited to 5016, but this is a highly picky market, even at the using end, and I don't think you could sell everyone on a ford spring. I mean the Japanese did their swords as a weldment of hard steel within a softer jacket. Are we a) seriously suggesting that 5016, which isn't even a tool steel, is better than the best japanese tool steels that we find in their swords, not likely. b) are we seriously suggesting that if an all tool steel diff hardened blade was superior (5016 diff hardened in the modern comparison) that the Shogun couldn't have marshalled the resources to a get a sword's worth of steel together? Sounds good unless you think about it...

5160, not 5016... *LINK*

David Barnett - SW Florida


>"Are we a) seriously suggesting that 5016, which isn't even a tool steel, is better than the best japanese tool steels that we find in their swords, not likely."

Nope, not likely at all. Easy mistake to make. Don't think I'll be filleting the fugu with that steel anytime soon, though! Not more than once, anyway.


ABS Journeyman Smith test with 5160 steel

Re: damascus steel knife blanks

Hound_va


>IMHO, knives in general are more about the maker than just about materials. Take a Bob Dozier knife for example. Anyone can make a knife using D2 steel, but not everyone can properly heat treat D2 like he can. Properly heat treated D2 makes for a heck of a knife and has great edge holding. Poorly heat treated D2 results in junk, tho they may look the same. Damascuss is the same way, in the sense that it is all about the maker and what materials and methods are used to create it.

Re: 5160, not 5016...

Thom D


>Thanks.

I'm well aware of all that, have both of Ed Fowler's (mr. 5160) books on the high performance knife. The ABS smith test is interesting, but it leads to some rather odd objectives, which is no more than to say that it isn't going to meet all needs. A lot of people don't want their knives to be bendable 90 degrees. You always give up something to get something, and in this case it is some toughness and edge holding. ABS tests are designed to show whether a smith has learned the basics, but they don't constitute a reliable indice of what people want in their knives more broadly. That said I am currently working on 2 Fowler style 5160 knives.

Re: damascus steel knife blanks

Thom D


>You are dead right, on the other hand:

a) a surprising number of the better makers use the same one or two heat treaters. Hand forged knives are an exception to this.

b) In damascus the steel rules, but again like wood it's not necesarilly that it's maple vs mahogany, it's the "figure".

Re: damascus steel knife blanks

Todd Hughes


>Thom wrote..." I mean the Japanese did their swords as a weldment of hard steel within a softer jacket. Are we a) seriously suggesting that 5016, which isn't even a tool steel, is better than the best japanese tool steels that we find in their swords, not likely."

Actually I think you need to re read again what I said...was not that the truck springs were as a good or better steel as the best Japanese tool steels but rather I said if the Japanese had access to good steel [truck springs] they probably wouldn't have made the steel they did.Quite a bit difference though I imagine it could be missed in a hasty reading and perhaps i am at fault for not making it clearer.

One of the reasons that the Japanese sword devoloped the way it did was because of the scaricity of good steel in Japan. The steel used in sword making called Tamahgane was made out of Black Sand containing iron and was very hard , expensive and time consming to make , some of this steel was further refined into excellent steel which was used in combination with iron and lower grade steels in the construction of swords. Would they have gone to all this trouble if they had ready access to "Good" steel like that which is found in truck springs?

.... While Thom said that these swords were made with "hard steel within a softer jacket" this is exactly oppesite most Japanese sword construction which would have a soft core and a Hard steel jacket which did the cutting. If you think about it for a second a sword would not cut very well if it had a hard core but a soft outer jacket that did the cutting. By having the body or core of the sword made out of softer steel or iron it allowed the blade to flex more with out snapping and then the steel jacket along the cutting edge could be made much harder to take and hold an edge better.

....While some of the steel was excellent steel used in these swords i think much more important was the skill the swordsmiths had in the forging and tempering of the blades.Also these swords are an extreamly specialised blade and were made with a single purpose which I feel is why they excelled at it too.

...I have to admit to a slight interest in these things and guess I could even say I sort of collect Japanese swords having about a half dozen or so hand forged ones.A nice one with a razor edge is a terriable thing to think about .......Todd

Re: damascus steel knife blanks *LINK*

Frank Mutchler in Colorado Springs


>I know very little about Japanese sword steel but for those who are interested here is a link with a great diagram showing the blade construction:


Japanese Sword Steel

Re: damascus steel knife blanks

Thom D


>Just to be clear, I'm only guessing, I don't know what would have happened. Your guess may be as good as mine.

"Actually I think you need to re read again what I said...was not that the truck springs were as a good or better steel as the best Japanese tool steels but rather I said if the Japanese had access to good steel [truck springs] they probably wouldn't have made the steel they did."

I don't agree with that proposition, it's unlikely it would have been all of one and none of the other. If by some miracle all they had was the steel and otherwise nothing new in their technology, probably a far larger percentage of the rabble would have had better swords. Just out of convenience I am assuming we are discussing their best options their highest expression, and I see no reason why they couldn't have scraped together enough of the hard stuff for some better swords, for their elite soldiers, the ones who believed the sword was their soul. Sure truck springs for the rest.

"Quite... a bit . Would they have gone to all this trouble if they had ready access to "Good" steel like that which is found in truck springs?"

Who knows, what we do know for sure is that people bother today, and we can argue about what impulse it is that makes them bother, but some segment of the sword botherers are true believers who believe, so to speak, that dovetails are actually better than dowels or screws, in ways other than aesthetics.

".... While Thom said that these swords were made with "hard steel within a softer jacket" this is exactly oppesite most Japanese sword construction which would have a soft core and a Hard steel jacket which did the cutting. If you think about it for a second a sword would not cut very well if it had a hard core but a soft outer jacket that did the cutting."

You are right, my bad. What I'm describing is "San Mai" construction. I'm not sure what this proves in terms of the overall argument. According to The Craft of the Japanese Sword, until the Kamakura period, Japanese swords were made out of one piece of solid high carbon steel. It was the direct involvement of the retired Emperor of the day, who may have been an amateur smith, that led to the inserted core of iron.

While smiths of the past would marvel at our ready access to steel, we also have a blind spot. Even blacksmithing texts of the early 20th century expect the country farm smith to have a ready handle on forge welding. Today we assume this is such a fantastic skill, and such hard work (in part due to the lack of access to good iron) That we read all kinds of nonsense into the fact of stuff being welded together. They either would only have incured the expense because steel was rare, or conversely because of mystical properties of the union of metals. When I look at a sword with a continuius welded structure and a welded tip, it's a lot scarry, but to a smith it's like worrying about laminating some wood, ridiculous. I don't believe the smiths of the day had any reason for the swrod constrution they offered their leaders other than the production of the ultimate sword, as they knew it.

"Also these swords are an extreamly specialised blade and were made with a single purpose which I feel is why they excelled at it too."

No question they are the best swords ever desinged for the wrong tactic...

"...I have to admit to a slight interest in these things and guess I could even say I sort of collect Japanese swords having about a half dozen or so hand forged ones.A nice one with a razor edge is a terriable thing to think about .......Todd "

I have to admit a slight interest in these thing. I have aquired some 1050 (hypocrite alert) to make a modern katana. This is not happening any time soon. I have gradually been aquiring the smithing stuff and the skill is coming along very slowly. Mostly I'm just making plane blades and chisels, but I believe in present day goals, medium term goals and masterpiece goals. Speaking of which, one of my today goals is to finish the welding on my avil stand... gotta run.