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pre civil war sharpening

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Re: pre civil war sharpening

#26

Re: Dateline - Boston: February, 1711

Tony Zaffuto

>Could it be that in this day and time we are more inclined to complicate the obvious and "think" that because it takes us two hours to sharpen this blade, then it must cut better?

Over the weekend, I had to plane a rabbet on the edge of a piece of cherry. My late Father gave me a Craftsmen clone of a Sargent 778/Stanley 78. I had never used this plane before and the blade looked horrible as compared to what I/we think we need to achieve: it was convex from hand sharpening and out of square, not to mention not that sharp. I didn't expect very much at all, but surprisingly it cut a very acceptable rabbet!

My point and similar points have been made by others from time to time is our forefather made a living working wood and not sharpening. They would do whatever needed to do the job and not sharpen to count nasal hairs.

Re: pre civil war sharpening

#27

Re: Dateline - Boston: February, 1711

Adam Cherubini

>Joel,

erstand where you are coming from. And don't take this the wrong way, but when you actually do the job with their stuff, the mystery part comes flooding back!! When you use a grinder that's out of round, 20 in diameter, and has no tool rest, THERE IS NO HOLLOW GRIND! :)

Adam

Re: pre civil war sharpening

#28

Hoary old chestnuts

Sgian Dubh

>Joel that sounds like something of an invitation to roll out that semi-mythical hoary old chestnut of mine so, here it is, ha, ha. Slainte.

A Lesson in Sharpening.

A perennial subject in woodworking magazines is that of sharpening techniques. No other furniture making topic seems to generate so many words, resulting in the publication of innumerable articles detailing �infallible� or �sure fire� methods of doing the job.

Naturally, the subject is of interest because blunt tools aren't much use. The opening preamble to many of these articles often cause a wry smile for they bring back memories of my initiation into the 'dark' art. Many authors make points about those that struggle at it, and possess a workshop full of dull tools. Conversely, it is often said that those that can do the job tend to be fanatical about grits, slurries and bevel angles. My experience is that there are really only two types of people when it comes to sharpening.

1. Those that can�t.

2. Those that can.

In the first group, those that can't, you'll sometimes see every sharpening system known to man arrayed around their workshop gathering dust. They have oilstones, water stones, ceramic stones, diamond stones, guides, pieces of sandpaper, jigs, etc.. Usually, every hand tool they own is chipped, dull and mostly useless.

In the second group, those that can, I haven�t observed much fanaticism about slurries, grits and bevel angles. In all the workshops I�ve worked in the only concern is to get the job done. It�s a case of, "Plane�s blunt, better sharpen it." Dig out the stone, sharpen the blade, shove it back in the plane, and get on with it. The equipment is minimal. A grinder, a stone and lubricant along with a few slips for gouges and the like.

Going back to the early seventies when I trained, learning how to sharpen tools was undertaken within the first few days. I don�t now recall precisely the order of my instruction, but it went something like this. I was handed a plane by the cabinetmaker I was assigned to and told, "Get that piece o� wood square." I didn�t know why, but I�d done a bit of woodworking at school, so I had a vague idea what to do. I fooled around with that lump of wood for twenty or so minutes, and got it something like. All this under the watchful eye of the crusty old guy and his ever present roll-up hanging out of the corner of his mouth.

"Okay, I�ve done that." I said, "Now what do you want me to do?"

I was told to hang about for a minute whilst he picked up his square and straight edge and proceeded to scrutinise my handiwork, which was followed by a non-committal grunt and some desultory foot sweeping of the plentiful shavings on the floor. (The wood was probably only about eighty or so per cent of its original volume!)

"Now sonny, let�s do the next job," he announced. "Pull that jack plane you�ve bin usin� apairt and let�s have a look at the iron." I did.

"Hold the iron up so�s yuh can see the cuttin' edge," he instructed. (He was a Scot.) Again I did as I was told.

"Now, can yu� see it? Can yu� see the �line o� light� at the shairp end there?" he wheezed, as he tapped a line of ash onto the floor and stood on it. He was referring to the shiny reflection visible when cutting edges are dull.

"Aye," I said, after a little eye narrowing, and other pretence of intelligence.

"How shairp does it look to you boy?" he enquired.

I thought about this for a moment or two, seeking the right response to my tormentor, for I hadn't really got a clue what he was talking about, and finally replied rather hopefully and a bit brightly, "Pretty shairp, I�d say."

He laughed out loud, and hacked a bit. "Dinnae be the daft bloody laddie wi� me son. If yu� can see it, it�s blunt. I could ride that bloody iron y'er holdin� bare-ersed to London and back and no cut ma�sel�. Get o�er here an� I�ll show yu� something."

You can probably guess. Out came the oilstone from his toolbox, and quick as a flash the iron was whisking up and down the stone, flipped over, the wire edge removed, and finally it was stropped backwards and forwards on the calloused palm of his hand. You could shave with it. I know, because he demonstrated how sharp it was by slicing a few hairs off his forearm. On went the cap iron and the lot was dropped back in the plane followed by a bit of squinting along the sole from the front whilst the lever and knob were fiddled with and that was it. He took a few shavings off a piece of wood and it went back in his toolbox. It took, oh,�......a few minutes.

"Now son, that�s a shairp plane. It�s nae bloody use to me blunt. Yu� may as well sling a soddin� blunt yin in the bucket fur'all the use it is to me." He explained with great refinement. "I�ve aboot ten mair o� them in that box, an� they�re all blunt. Ah�ve bin savin �em for yu�. There�s a bunch a chisels too. Let�s get yu� started."

For what felt like forever I sharpened his tools for the one and only time he allowed me to under his rheumy eyed and critical stare, and things gradually got better. After a while he stopped telling me what a "completely daft stupit wee bastit, " I was, and a bit later he started offering grudging approval. I had to sharpen some tools more than once because he kept on using and dulling them-- or at least he would claim they were dull. When I�d done the lot we stopped and surveyed the days work.

"Aye, nae too bad fer a daft laddie's fust effort," he commented darkly, sucking hard on his smoke, "I think ye�ve goat whit it takes. Time�ll tell sonnie. Remember, ye�ll never be a bliddy cabinetmaker if yu� cannae even shairpen yer effin' tools. Lesson over. Dinnae ferget it."

I haven't.

Re: pre civil war sharpening

#29

Re: Dateline - Boston: February, 1711

joel -( tools for working wood)

>Adam,

don't take this the wrong way either.

1) Moxon specifically refers to the hollow grind and how useful it is and elaborates on hand holding tools steady while grinding.

2) if you have an out of round 20" wheel - going at any speed it will destroy your axle and mounting shafts. - or explode.

3) with a slow wheel - as a hand cranked wheel would be it is pretty easy to follow a out of round condition.

when I was a small lad - we had a belt driven 20" wet wheel in the workshop at school. The teachers loved it because even an idiot could grind successuflly on it (no rests of any sort that I can remember).

The professional cabinetmakers in the 18,19, and other centuries weren't fools, and they had a lot of practice. THe equipent they had was higly tuned for what it did and it did it well. To ask the question what steel did Early American woodworkers use and how did they sharpen their tools is an interesting question and worth investigating but to assume that they had the same issues you have now is doing them an injustice. For the record I collect old woodworking magazines and before the 1930's or 40's maybe even later you hardly ever see an article on sharpening.

in those days and even more so before men - even random non woodworkers used knives and pocket knives regularly and understood what a sharp tool was.

note:

don McConnell or Larry would be more qualified than I to comment on this but I think that 18th century plane irons were sometimes made just by casehardening. which is easy to do. Made for a hard edge, and of course was dead easy to sharpen.

Re: pre civil war sharpening

#30

Re: Hoary old chestnuts

joel -( tools for working wood)

>Yip - that's the story - thanks for reposting it.

Re: pre civil war sharpening

#31

Re: Dateline - Boston: February, 1711

Don McConnell

>Joel noted:

"Don McConnell or Larry [Williams] would be more qualified than I to comment on this but I think that 18th century plane irons were sometimes made just by casehardening. which is easy to do. Made for a hard edge, and of course was dead easy to sharpen."

Undoubtedly, some plane irons were case hardened by non-specialists in remote situations. Otherwise the evidence is pretty clear that nearly all 18th century plane irons were laminated. There would have been no point in laminating iron on to iron, then doing case hardening. So, steel was being laid onto iron, the iron shaped (if for a molding plane), then being hardened and tempered.

We now have fairly compelling comparative date to determine that the lamination of plane irons (and other edge tools) was done to keep costs down. Steel was expensive (think of the several days of firing required to make blister steel), and though it seems counterintuitive, it was more economical to use less steel and more labor to do the laminating than it was to make the irons entirely of steel.

There has been a good deal of speculation that the laminated irons (& other edge tools) ease sharpening. I've used a number of such laminated irons over the years and haven't really noticed all that much difference in sharpening. If there is any difference, it is marginal, and I certainly don't alter my sharpening process for such irons.

Don McConnell

Eureka Springs, AR

Re: pre civil war sharpening

#32

Hollow grind

Adam Cherubini

>FYI

The hollow grind of a 20" wheel on a .200 thick iron with a 30 degree bevel is .002" of hollow. For a 25 degree bevel its .003". If the iron is thicker, .300 for example, the hollow goes up to a whopping .0045" for a 30 degree bevel. That's not much hollow.

Free handing an iron on a natural sandstone wheel, whose grit (not to mention surface) varies significantly inorder to create a hollow grind is a challenge I've not yet risen to meet!

Adam

Re: pre civil war sharpening

#33

Re: Hollow grind

joel -( tools for working wood)

>I've never calculated it but I have certainly noticed that the tools I get from Ashley Iles which are ground on even larger wheels have a detectible hollow in that it goes away quick when you sharpen but you do get flats top and bottom of the bevel. I never realized how little metal you remove when honing.

"...natural sandstone wheel, whose grit (not to mention surface) varies significantly inorder"

Why would a natural sandstone wheel have varing grit or surface? certainly the natural sandstone wheels I have seen in Sheffield and lying around the derbyshire cliff where the quarries were are totally consistent - which is why they were used. Certainly a wheel that wasn't of a consistent nature would be much less commercially desireable than one that is consistent and a successfful quarry would be known - just like today - for it's constency. If nothing else a stone with much variation wouldn't balance correctly and that alone would be a reason for rejection. While I suppose stones like that were used- it would be rare in any quality shop.

I don't know anything about American sources of stone but certainly the requirements are the same.

Re: pre civil war sharpening

#34

Re: Hollow grind

Thom D

>I htink one way in which they are inconsistant is a lot of them do not run true at all. In sheffield where they were running the best gear of the time this may not have been true, but a lot of old wheels I have seen are not true.

You can get nice wheels up to about 18" and run whatever belts you want:

http://www.batavia.co.za/Contact_wheels.htm

Re: pre civil war sharpening

#35

Re: Hollow grind

http://

>I worked for many years in a sandstone quarry in southern Ohio. This was past the time of making grindstones and all of our product was for buildings or laboratory table tops.

Every worker carried a pocket knife and every piece in the mill was a whetstone. The common practice was to ask a new guy to borrow his knife and then try to shave hair with it. If it didn't shave painlessly the newcomer was derided for his dull knife.

Even though the stone consisted of very fine, round silica particles with very little clay ( about 4%), these particles quickly broke down into a slurry of finer, quicker cutting fragments.

Every knife and other edge tool in the place was razor sharp, well "shaving the arm hair sharp" at least.

The edges were not perfect but they always got the job done.

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