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sharpening with a grinding wheel

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sharpening with a grinding wheel

#1

sharpening with a grinding wheel

bill tindall

>This note is a companion to the earlier note on diamond sharpening. I was encouraged to submit it by someone who I goaded into trying this technique. They were pleased with the result and they thought a post might help others overcome the fear of having-at a delicate plane iron with a grinder. I must say that my concerns were lessened by routinely grinding edges of lathe tools.

A dull tool has a rounded edge. The bevel must be ground back to remove all the rounding. We will call this step "initial grinding". When initial grinding is complete a burr pushes up and away from the ground bevel, which indicates the edge can now be refined by honing. This burr is referred to as the "wire edge". It is easy to detect this wire edge(burr) by rubbing across the flat side of the tool. The removal of this relatively large amount of metal, large relative to the honing step, is the slow step in sharpening.

The ways to accomplish initial grinding are numerous- coarse sandpaper, coarse stones, and a variety of powered sharpening devices. The disadvantage of the hand powered approaches is they are slow even with the coarsest abrasive available, and they leave a flat bevel. With a flat bevel, all subsequent steps must either grind away at the whole bevel or the bevel angle must somehow be increased slightly. To accomplish these steps while maintaining consistent presentation of the tool to the abrasive requires daunting skill if done by hand, or it requires jigging the tool. Jigging requires added time, the cost of the jig and the shortcomings of using a jig on short stones.

Of the powered means of initial sharpening the humble bench grinder is by far the cheapest, and most shops have one anyway for lawn mower blades. Most woodworkers have not given a bench grinder a second thought for initial grinding having first thought about the peril of burning tool edges. However, one can buy cool running wheels and slow speed grinders. Is it possible to accomplish initial grinding, that is grinding the bevel to produce a straight wire edge, with a bench grinder? Yes, and easily so. It mostly takes the courage to try it.

The goal is to be able to grind a straight tool edge without burning. Essential for success is a solid and spacious tool rest, and a cool running wheel. The rests from Oneway are perfect, the Lee Valley rest is flimsy and made of "sticky" aluminium (steel sticks to aluminium), and the rests that came with a grinder useless. A rest can readily be made from wood. For wheel recommendations see my article in the Articles Section. Acceptable wheels are available from Radiac, Lee Valley, Tools for Working Wood and machine shop supply houses.

The burning issue is minimized by proper wheel selection but a cool wheel is a fast cutting wheel. Control to achieve a straight edge then becomes the issue. I can reliably grind a 2" plane iron to form a straight burr, with no burning, using a 3600 rpm grinder and an 80 or 100 grit wheel. But, this is not the ideal starting place for the inexperienced and it is far from preferred by me either. A better arrangement would be a wheel that turned much slower, like only 500 rpm or less. At 500 rpm a 100 grit wheel accomplishes initial grinding in seconds so control is the focus for grinder selection, not speed.

A Tormek grinder is the ideal tool for initial grinding but at a substantial and unnecessary price. One can learn to do this grinding with a cheap "slow' speed (1700 rpm) grinder and there are other options. I choose to use a 3-phase grinder slowed through the use of a phase inverter that allows me to slow the wheel speed to a crawl. I already had the inverter to control a 3 phase lathe motor so its cost was not a factor. Because the desired wheel speed is but a few hundred rpm a suitable grinder could be assembled from an arbor (Lee Valley), a small motor and a suitable tool rest. Even an old fashioned hand powered grinder would suffice with some adaptation.

The optimum technique could be described as "touch and go". I use a slightly crowned wheel, 1 " wide. I no longer think the wheel width is very important because crowning the wheel is desirable. In a sweeping motion the tool is brought across the wheel, left to right or right to left. The leading tool edge touches the high spot of the crown to commence grinding. Very, very light pressure is used with rapid tool movement, something like a second to complete the pass. Let me emphasize again-light pressure. Only the tiniest amount of metal is removed with each pass. I examine the edge in bright light after each pass or at least every few passes.

It is easy to see progress and correct the point of tool engagement with the wheel to compensate for under/over ground portions of the edge. Suppose for example the left edge of the tool edge is underground and we are using touch and go from left to right. On the next pass, don't touch the wheel until the right edge is past the wheel's crown. Nothing will be removed from the right edge while the center and left edge will be ground. By varying the very slight pressure used to hold the tool to the wheel, a tapered grind can be accomplished when necessary to straighten an edge. It all sounds complicated until you actually do it. The hollow of the tool bevel nestles against the curvature of the wheel. With a light touch it is easy to feel that all is well with the presentation of tool to wheel. Never-the less- practicing on some expendable iron is recommended. Oh, did I say use a light touch? These cool running wheels cut with blazing speed.

One of my editors(critics) missed the point that in this grinding the entire bevel is being ground, all of the bevel hollow right to the edge. This grinding renews the edge as well as maintains the hollow grind and bevel angle. There are but two operations-grind, hone, get dull, grind, hone, get dull, repeat.....

When the burr forms and the edge looks straight (I check with a small square against a light source) it's done. If the bevel angle has already been properly established this whole operation could take less than a minute, while grinding a new bevel angle might take several minutes. (It is beyond the scope of this note to recommend bevel angles but about 30 degrees is a place to start if you have to guess.) Changing bevel angle requires considerable metal removal and more heat is generated. I feel the edge in this operation and dip the tool in water occasionally if it appears to be getting hot.

This straight hollow ground bevel is now ready for rapid honing as described in the previous diamond post. Most people will find it very easy to hand hone this hollow bevel because it indexes so confidently on the plate. Other honing techniques could also be used. After a couple of strokes on the diamond honing plate it is easy to confirm the edge is straight from the bright polished line made by the honing grit. If the edge is way off then this polished line can be used as a guide to correct the problem back on the grinder.

I am a person of average hand skill (I can't cut flauntable dovetails) yet this means of initial sharpening was not difficult for me to master. The reward is blazing speed and low cost compared to many alternatives.

Re: sharpening with a grinding wheel

#2

Re: sharpening with a grinding wheel

Thom D

>And you want to see fast, try a belt grinder. By the way, I think plane irons are pretty much the easiest thing to grind. Lathe tools are certainly a little harder. With planes you have full width and length support on the tool rest, with chisels I usually grind off of my fingers resting on the rest, though a shorter rest is all I would really need.

Re: sharpening with a grinding wheel

#3

Tormek alternatives *LINK*

Bill Houghton, sunny today yahoo in Sebastopol, CA

>I don't own and have never even run a Tormek, so I can't offer a comparison, but I'm puzzled why people never mention the Delta 23-700 wet wheel grinder, which is similar in intent to the Tormek. I bought one some years back for, if I recall correctly, $180, and have used it since. Amazon's listing it for $150. It's got an unfortunate tendency to load up the wheel, so I have to use a carbide dressing stick on it frequently, but the bevels come out almost mirror bright and very consistent, with no burning. Slow, compared to a high speed bench grinder, but no blue steel or blue air (from the "oh Q#$%#^!!!" that you can hear when I burn a good tool).


img

Delta's description.

Re: sharpening with a grinding wheel

#4

Re: sharpening with a grinding wheel

les winter

>Nice post, Bill.

How do you go about crowning the wheel?

thanks

Les

Re: sharpening with a grinding wheel

#5

Re: Tormek alternatives

Andy in Raleigh

>And from the really cheap bargain basement...

I have one of the sharpeners pictured below. I got mine when one of the big boxes was carrying them. They were under $30 new. It makes a bunch of racket (crappy universal motor) and comes with no tool rest (but the end of a 2x4 cut on the miter saw works fine). But it turns slowly, keeps the wheel wet and will put a somewhat coarse but properly shaped bevel on blades and tools without overheating them. I use a LV honing guide on stones to finish up. The side cover comes off and gives you better access to the flat of the stone and makes it easier to see how nuch water is in it (and refill).


img

Re: sharpening with a grinding wheel

#6

Re: Tormek alternatives

Andy in Raleigh

>That is a GMC 8" wet sharpener.

Re: sharpening with a grinding wheel

#7

crowning

bill tindall

>I use one of those sticks with a retangle of diamonds stuck to its end. I only crown very slightly and the purpose is so I know for sure were the wheel is going to contact the edge..If you only need to take a smidgen off one side to straighten the edge you need to be able to reliably know where the wheel is going to hit the steel on the touch and go pass.

I have gound with a flat wheel too. In this case the tool must be swept into the wheel to make contact. I find it a little less easy to control metal removal with the dead flat wheel.

I got misinterpreted on the power side. All this futzing is not to control burning. With a soft wheel burning is not an issue that needs much concern. The issue is getting the edge dead straight. The straightness of the edge determines how many strokes on the 1 micron diamond will be necessary. Of course if some coarser grit preceeds the 1 micron then this coarse grit can straighter a more cooked edge, more quickly.

Re: sharpening with a grinding wheel

#8

Re: Tormek alternatives

Thom D

>Dry grinders shouldn't burn tools with modern wheels. They probably should burn them with the green wheels either, but I am certainly guilty of that the odd time. I have the big wheel grinder that Lee Valley used to sell, and the available 800 grit wet stone. Nice unit but doesn't see any use, slow, messy, space hog.

Re: sharpening with a grinding wheel

#9

Bill's 'touch and go' method

Wiley Horne

>which he described to me a coupla years ago in an email convinced me to start hollow grinding.

The blades I received from Clark & Williams and Ron Hock were always hollow ground, so I knew it was a good idea.

But it had seemed to me that you needed professional equipment or else it would be an exercise of seeing how close you can come to burning your blade without actually doing it--in other words, a tense dicey business.

But here's what I found....by taking the metal off in quick passes, microns at a time, you can control the heat. Your fingers are on the metal, so it's no mystery. I dunk the blade after each pass for good measure--just keep a bowl of water beside me, so it's no big deal. And I don't want the blade to even feel warm, so I go slow. Now with M2 or A2 or probably 3V, some heat won't hurt. But I also use a lot of Japanese steel and O1 and cast steel and don't want to burn it, so use the same technique for everything.

I handhold blades on the Baldor toolrest which came with the grinder. Have heard great things about the OneWay rest--and am sure it's a good investment--but you grind bevels handheld, with ordinary mechanical ability, if you take it easy. You examine the grind marks until you get a little hollow started, and then you can feel the blade nestle up against the wheel. I like to advance the blade horizontally against the wheel rather than lowering it down vertically, specifically so I can feel this registration of the hollow-in-the-making against the wheel.

As for overall angle, I like to lay the hollow back to where it's overall angle is a degree less than the lowest honing angle to be used. By doing it this way, you have a lot of flexibility in adjusting the honing angle, and each hollow grind lasts longer. Now Bill's grind-to-a-burr method is amazing--at the moment, I am grinding to within about 1/32 or 1/64, but not to a burr. Think I will try it Bill's way, and see what happens. But you can do as you please, of course.

The blade is a heat sink. Big blades are pretty tolerant and heat builds slowly. I have blued one blade, and it was a 1/8" chisel--no heat sink to amount to anything. So heat can build in a flash on a real small chisel, even going slow. No trouble on anything else.

Also grind Japanese chisels, but not Japanese plane blades. The difference is that the plane blade has (a) a much wider unsupported span than the chisel, and (b) its hollow on the backside is deeper than the one on the chisel, and usually closer to the edge. So a plane blade is significantly weakened by grinding, where the chisel is not.

I use a 1700rpm Baldor, which is way expensive. However, grinding blades is truly a no-load operation, and you don't need good gear to do it. A lot of people use 3600rpm grinders as well, but I can't comment on these.

Wiley

Re: sharpening with a grinding wheel

#10

Re: crowning

les winter

>Thankyou, Bill

Re: sharpening with a grinding wheel

#11

Re: Bill's 'touch and go' method

Frank D.

>Hi Wiley and everyone,

Just thought I'd add a note to all the great info here. Charlesworth recommends grinding to as close to the edge as possible without touching it, and that's what I do. With a little practice it's pretty easy to come within 1/100" or so. The advantage of this is that you don't wear out the blade for nothing, because the first few passes on the polishing stone will give you a burr, and you conserve blade geometry as well (if your edge is square you don't need anything to check squareness, and your edge remains straight).

Wiley, when you talk about Japanese steel, do you mean laminated blades? I thought they couldn't be ground, but if they can I'd sure like to know.

The LV tool rest might be of lesser quality and it does stick a little, but one advantage of aluminum is that it works better as a heat sink than steel. I dunk too so the rest gets wet, and I can see the water evaporate all the way across the rest when the blade gets hot (which means its drawing heat out quite efficiently).

Re: sharpening with a grinding wheel

#12

Re: sharpening with a grinding wheel

Moses Yoder in White Pigeon, MI

>In my opinion, you are dismissing several things that I think deserve consideration. I have found sharpening with a hand cranked grinder with the Lee Valley aluminum tool rest to be just the ticket for me. I kept my electric grinder though, because it has a wire wheel on one side and I find it useful for cleaning up rusty screws and bolts.

Re: sharpening with a grinding wheel

#13

Re: Bill's 'touch and go' method

Wiley Horne

>Frank,

Good info. What kinda wheel do you use?

On the Japanese blades....It's my understanding that Harrelson hollows about everything on a Tormek. When I talked about hollow grinding, I meant the real laminated blades. Chisels though, not plane blades. As I said, plane blades have that long unsupported span, a hollow back, are often sharpened to about a 25 degree bevel, and furthermore, need to be tapped out from time to time--all these things make hollowing the backing a dicey thing. On the other hand, chisels are not tapped out, are generally at a slightly higher bevel angle, and have support fairly nearby at the corners of the edge.

Nevertheless, hollow grinding them is against most people's advice. The usual advice is that, because the cutting steel can be around Rc64-65, you need all the backing metal intact to provide support against shock. I have no theoretical argument against this thinking--indeed, it seems very sound--but my experience is that it is just not a practical problem. Moreover, because of the way I do mortises, I have also hollowed my mortise chisels, and use them at 27-28 degrees overall, and they do fine also. I really would not like for Imai-san to see what I do to his chisels, but there it is. Your mileage may vary.

Wiley

Re: sharpening with a grinding wheel

#14

Re: Bill's 'touch and go' method

Frank D. in Montreal

>I use a Norton white 60 grain wheel (I have 2 6" grinders, a high speed and a low speed). I usually start off with the high speed, then switch to the low speed when I get close to the edge. After the first sharpening I put 3 bevels on plane blades, so the secondary bevel is usually done with a 1000 which forms the first burr. Then I put the microbevel (third bevel) on with a 4000 and an 8000.

Thanks for the info on Japanese chisels. I'm still waiting for my first ones to get here, but I'll certainly experiment a little when I sharpen them.

Re: sharpening with a grinding wheel

#15

Re: Bill's 'touch and go' method

Thom D

>I don't grind the edge on Japanese chisels, mainly. I have some HSS chisels that presumably you could nearly take to red hot without drawing the temper. And the HSS chisels are very good to boot, not nasty like a lot of A2 stuff. I also have about a half dozen HSS plane blades. I don't grind all of these. No way I would grind an Imai chisel, sorta like hauling manure in a Bentley. I don't think the unsupported edge is a problem you can grind away all the supporting metal if you want to I have a cheap set I did that to a few of to make them into Krenov style dovetail chisels. Unless you a prying heavily the edge doesn't really care how supported it is.

Grinding belongs, for me, on chisels designed for it or larely disposable, If you grind the sharpening is so fast that most of the features that Japanese chisels have are lost in the shuffle. There are specially built to work in harmony with the stone, and to do it all efficiently. The other extreme is something like a metal working lathe where the toolpost accepts tools that are simple little bars of HSS, you sharpen one you chuck it in, and it does wonderful work for you, as anonimous as a roofing nail and better quality than 95% of the blades in woodworking, a few bucks. I have even made little rebate planes out of them, and they would make good mortising chisels.

It's true the blade is a good heat sink but the accute edge concentrates heat. The edge is what maters so one has to baby it. What I do when final grinding is dip the tool in water and bring it to the wheel with the skin of water still on it. When the water evaporates, you know you are pushing 200 degrees, which is largely trivial as far as drawing the temper is concenrned, you can often get quite a few passes from grinders before the water lifts. It's like every thing else, if you keep up with the grinding then you won't need to heat the tool up so much that you have to slow down a lot as it approaches the edge. When just resharpening I don't use any water. Mostly I just use water when grinding after heat treating, while making the tool in the first place. Or I use water if the tool has a major chip, or is getting a big reshaping. Any time the tool heats up which should not be the case for just sharpening.

By the way one can grind flat even convex (spokeshaves and axes) with belt grinders, as well as any diameter one wants, without affecting the surface speed. I still like grinding on a dry wheel since it produces that factory look and doesn't waste steel. I haven't often ttried using the variable speed to create an automated scarry sharp oon the belt sander, maybe some day. I use that approach for knives.

Re: sharpening with a grinding wheel

#16

Re: sharpening with a grinding wheel

Thom D

>I picked up one of those hand crank grinders that Krenov gave the nod to in his books. Periodically I like to get stuff that I couldn't afford when I first wanted it, though I no longer really need it. I was also having a rare, for me "Todd moment" at the time.

One thing you might be overlooking is that you can use a variable speed motor, they are about the price of a Shapton 4000 stone, and drive your electric wheel at whatever speed you fancy while maintaining two handed control. I can run my belt grinder at near stall speed, or push a bar at it that is reduces to powder like a log entering a chipper. It's "all good" as the kids say. Well not the part about setting one's gloves on fire.

Re: sharpening with a grinding wheel

#17

Re: sharpening with a grinding wheel

Stephen Kirk in Quakertown PA

>That's a really good idea about the variable speed supply. I'm thinking of asking my brother, who is quite the electrical type of guy to help me out finding what's right. I only have 1 high speed grinder, and so far only my wife has used it to touch up axes and things. I got the LV Tool rest just about a month ago, but I haven't had a chance to try it out yet. I've got some older plane blades that I can practice on though. With a variable speed motor, I may not be quite as scared of destroying blades.

Re: sharpening with a grinding wheel

#18

Re: sharpening with a grinding wheel

Dan Donaldson

>For an induction motor, to get variable speed, you need a three phase one. You might be able to find a cheap three phase grinder, then add a vfd to get the variable speed.

Re: sharpening with a grinding wheel

#19

Re: Speed controls.

Thom D

>A favorite for moderate duty use are surplus exercise treadmill motors. If you want to take it beyond that, you should send your brother to Bladeforums, the makers forum and just poke around. A rich resource for grinder mods. Another good source are the 9x20 lathe forums on Yahoo. One of these became so beset with speed control issues, about half the posts, that they had to split the forum, or where considering it.

Re: sharpening with a grinding wheel

#20

Re: Bill's 'touch and go' method

Andrew F in Australia

>Sooner or later guys, there'll be a video available that will show you how to grind on a cheap 6" grinder without having to spend anything on aftermarket guides.

It's all in the technique - basically, you just try to shave the surface of the wheel with the blade while moving the blade sideways.

Cheers,

Andrew

Re: sharpening with a grinding wheel

#21

That's exactly what I do. It works fine.

Wiley Horne

>

Re: sharpening with a grinding wheel

#22

Oops, addressed to the wrong post!!

Andrew F in Australia

>and re-reading the post, there wasn't any sleight intended to anybody.

Trade are trained to grind pretty well the same as the way that Wiley described there - it's in the technique, not the equipment. If you feel the blade heat up, take it off the rest and cool it, I use the palm of my left hand as the steel is about 40-60�C at this point. Others use water.

Cheers,

Andrew

Re: sharpening with a grinding wheel

#23

Re: Best of Both

William Duffield, on the Cohansey

>There has recently been introduced a third party attachment to your Delta grinder that will allow it to accept all the Tormek sharpening attachments. The Delta grinder plus the attachment is substantially less than the Tormek, and you get Delta's high speed grinding wheel too. The Tormek, OTOH, will only grind slow.

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