Advice before switching to waterstones.

Re: Advice before switching to waterstones.

Stephen Kirk in Quakertown PA

>Ditto on everything you said. I've only recently learned to sharpen (moderately) well, but I was really caught up in getting a perfect edge. As a result, I didn't cut much with that edge. I actually found that it's better to learn to sharpen in the middle of a project, when what you really want to do is get back to working wood. I agree that for a smoothing plane you need a really sharp edge, and you should put the time in there. But, for block planes, jacks, chisels, etc, if it cuts the wood with minimal force, no tearout and leaves a nice surface, I'm happy. I like finishing with a plane, but I have no problem taking a few swipes with some 220 grit sandpaper if I want the surface just a little bit better.

I use scary sharp and stropping, and I've gotten more utilitarian. I just need to get the tool ready to work wood again. Since I use scary sharp dry, I'll often set my chunk of float glass on the coffee table and touch up the tools later at night while watching TV, then I'm good to go for the next day. I'm just an amatuer who works in the evenings anyway, so I don't have that much sharpening.

And, because I like contradicting myself ... If you wanna try something new, go ahead. It's how we learn. And it's usually fun, and often expensive.

Happy woodworking!

I'm skeptical

bill tindall

>If I understood, the claim was grinding on a wheel, say 80 grit, followed by green honing compound? This will result in a polished edge but I'll bet a microscop will reveal it to be a scalloped edge and hence weaker than a properly honed edge. I am skeptical the green stuff will smooth 80 grit grinder scratches and it for sure will not straighten any irregularities in the ground edge, an activity that accounts for most of the time using a diamond charged plate. I suspect that it will just shine the contours.

Brent Beach had some nice photomicrographs of edges prepared with the green stuff. As I recall he concluded this was not an optimum way to prepare edges.

Re: I'm skeptical

Charles

>80 grit directly to rouge? You should be skeptical.

Re: Advice before switching to waterstones.

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>In painting you have an even more infinite (good trick that, levels of infinity) set of options once you factor in all the types of paints, ways of applying, ways of mixing, substrates, types of brush shapes and style and material and size. Then you have to decide what to paint with what. So you could spend even more time fooling about.

As to sharpening, you're correct; but there's always the holy grail of the effortless, or maybe even simply less effort expended, sharpening method. And the fact that some methods work better on different metals than others is very tantalizing.

In these days of no apprenticeships, this forum is the closest most of us will get to good guidance. And you can always sell stones and guides on the bay in the case of a mistake or two.

Pam

Re: I'm skeptical

Thom D

>Well who can blame you? Maybe it is hard to believe that one can go straight from the 80 grit/shaping wheel to the buff, though you can see the same process performed in Tage Frid's half lap dovetailing video for FWW. Which presumably means everyone who went through his courses at RSD has seen it too. Inconvenient isn't it?

Anyway, occasionally I confuse even myself, so I went out to the shop for a minute to see if I was exaggerating. Freehanded a really nasty course white stone wire edge on a chisel, and then buffed it on the adjacent green wheel, not even a dab of the green stuff in much evidence and I didn't refresh it. 20 seconds later tested the end on a piece of pine and then maple, both of which it cut with ease. Then I shaved a big bloody patch on my arm, smooth as a baby's bottom, and I have a 19 day old baby in the house for comaprison purposes. I then applied the barber's test to the edge. Wet your thumb nail and go in for a low angle catch, this is evidence you have properly honed an edge. Passed fine. Then wet a fingertip and go in for a catch, this test it failed, meaning it is not sharp enough to actually shave a face with and get a tip, but I am confident with a few more seconds on the wheel with fresh green compound it would probably pass. Most razor edges do not pass test 2, since typically in woodworking it was not the practice to strop an edge after wetting it on a fine Arkansas stone. That is the dividing line the barber's test identifies when to move on to the strop, and when to move on to the face. I also ran my finger along the edge very carefully and it felt dead smooth to the touch, I didn't get cut, so it certainly isn't ragged in the least.

I would have no problem making money or giving a dovetailing demo with this edge just as it is.

Let's be clear, at 1800 rpm on an 8" wheel for ten seconds it's like dragging the edge along a scary sharp/diamond strop 628' long, 2 seconds is 125'. The average sharpening stroke I see with a jig is probably about 4" long so that is like 375-1800 passes. Most grinders are 3600 at 6" for 942'/ten seconds.

I'm not saying this is a perfect method, there isn't a perfect method. But it is perfectly fast, and relatively cheap. The whole rig including the motor is about the price of a shapton 8000.

Just what is there to be skeptical about?

Re: I'm skeptical 

Thom D

>

THANKS for all the info

Angus Barclay, in New Zealand

>This thread and another thread above that spawned from here have both provided me with a lot of information and opinions. I'll sort through them all (and a few other info sources too) and try to figure out what is likely to be the "best" sharpening method and technology for me and the way I work.

Many thanks to all who contributed. The variety and quality of well stated opinions, personal observations, and hard facts are what makes WoodCentral such a great place.

regards

Angus Barclay

Re: I'm skeptical

paul womack

>Well who can blame you? Maybe it is hard to believe that one can go straight from the 80 grit/shaping wheel to the buff, though you can see the same process performed in Tage Frid's half lap dovetailing video for FWW. Which presumably means everyone who went through his courses at RSD has seen it too. Inconvenient isn't it?

Having seen the remarkable damage done to vintage tools by people trying to polish (not grind) using a charged power buff, I can readily believe it's a quite sufficiently powerful metal removal method.

It's not the rouge (or other compound), it's the POWER.

The finely graduated sequence of grits is only neccessary to remove much of the labour from a hand powered process.

BugBear

Re: I'm skeptical

charles

>Tage Frid used a worn out, glazed over belt. The effective grit was far from 80.

Re: Advice before switching to waterstones.

charles

>Sandpaper will do just fine. The original poster should simply know that the grass is not greener on the waterstone side of the fence.

Sharpening is a means to and end and certainly not a search for any sort of grail, Holy or otherwise.

Re: Advice before switching to waterstones.

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>Vis a vis rounding over, waterstones may be a greener side of the fence from sandpaper.

Maybe sharpening is not a holy grail to you, but it sure seems to be what many of the people here are searching for, based on following several years of questions and comments here.

Pam

Re: Advice before switching to waterstones.

Charles

>Well, you and I've bumped heads before and I'm quite sure that I'll never convince you that the object of the craft is to build woodworking projects, not endless collecting, honing, and fettling of tools.

Stone ponds and drywall screens, and frequent stone maintenance are just not where it's all at for me. I'm quite happy to be in the apparent minority.

Re: Advice before switching to waterstones.

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>Well, if we've indeed bumped heads I sure don't remember; but I'll bet it was because you refused to respond to what I'd said, instead preferring to cast what you say I'd said according to what you expected me to say. All you really have to do is read more carefully.

You can't convince me because I'm already convinced that making wood projects is more to the point than sharpening. I actually said that many people here were looking for the holy grail of sharpening, not that I was.

Pam