Stanley Chisel Identification

Re: Stanley Chisel Identification

todd hughes

>Since marked 750 chisels normaly sell for a premium over ones not marked 750 it is understandable that the buyer is upset.It used to be that unmarked ones were worth about nothing but as of late thier prices have risen but still under what a marked one sells for.While identical otherwise I don't think you can really say they are 750s if not marked esp. since the marking affects the price they will go for.Since the price on these unmarked chisels have risen I have sold a good many of them. I used to knock the handles off to use on numbered chisels and throw the blades into a corner of the shop. Anyway when I sell them now I describe them as "Un Numbered 750s" and point out that they are marked "Stanley Made in USA" on the socket. I really think this is the only fair way to sell them and this way the buyer knows what he is getting and doesn't think he is bidding on the more desirable ones that have the 750 on them.

...I'm not sure what the unmarked 750s were, maybe later chisels made after Stanley stopped numbering them? I have also seen ones with a D stamped on them and I think maybe from the cheaper Defiance line of tools.Maybe the unmarked 750s were from this line too. I don't know. D could be for Defective too I guess but I have seen alot of them and don't remember seeing any with obvious defects unlike the Many Everlasts that I have seen marked "imperfect" with bad grind lines.

.....My advise after selling many 1,000s of things on ebay is to go to great accurate detail on what you are selling and leave nothing to guess or to chance and you will be better off in the long run......Todd

Re: Stanley Chisel Identification *LINK*

Jerry Nordby

>I have collected old woodworking tools for close to 30 years. While I have a lot of knowledge about them it has come from other collectors and just plain experience looking, trading and collecting the tools. I have seen very little written references for the old tools. At best I have seen very hard to read sales clatalogs that have very little in the way of explanation.

Stanley only sold one chisel that looks like a 750, a 750. When first producing the chisels Stanley did NOT put numbers on them. Only after they developed multiple lines of chisels, 720, everlast, 740, etc. did they start putting the model numbers on the chisels. This is true with just about everything Stanley sold.

Your first thought on the D is correct. The D is for Defiance. Originally Stanley just put the D to mark the Defiance. Later they changed the numbering. Stanley did sell the tools that did not pass inspection. You can identify them as they will be stamped "IMPERFECT".

On my auction listing the title stated 3 Stanley 750 chisels. In the description I had a table of sorts set up. The left colum listed the titles of the rows of the table. The titles were Width, Total Length, Shaft Length and Inscription. The next colum listed that data for the first chisel which was pictured (front and back), the next colum listed the data for the second chisel, the next colum had the two pictures and the same for the third chisel.

In the Inscription cell for each chisel I listed exactly what was stamped on the chisel. The first stated "Stanley No 750 Made in USA". The other two stated "Stanley Made in USA". So I am wondering how this person could have NOT known that two of the chisels were not stamped 750. I am including a link to my auction so that you can see exactly how I had it listed.

Every study of old Stanley tools that I have seen has identified the tool by its characteristics, not just what was stamped on the tool. Stanley was just not consistent in uniquely identifying their tools.

I am left in a real jam. I know that the chisels are 750's. My listing clearly identified exactly what was stamped on the chisel. But the buyer thinks he/she was misled. I am in a no-win situation for sure.


eBay listing of chisels

You are right, but wrong

Jim Reed @ Tallahassee

>In modern retailing, customer satisfaction trumps technical issues every time. This theory holds that it is better to lose an occasional sale to keep each customer happy. Continuing to press your point technically only annoys the customer and increases his disatisfaction. Since this is a tool from a finite set of products, you do not really lose a sale, you just delay it. It is just a small cost of doing business.

I'm with Jim here

Ernie Miller

>Offer to refund the guys money after he returns them it is better to back away than mess around with him. They look like nice chisels and will sell when relisted. Take a small loss and block the person from buying in the future.

Re: You are right, but wrong

Jerry Nordby

>I have not pressed my point. When I was first notified of this I replied with "What makes you think that they are not 750's". He/she replied that because they are not marked 750's then they are not 750's. I have not replied.

Your response raises the age old question of when to satisfy the customer and when to make them accountable for their actions.

This is why I say that I am now in a no win situation - If I stand my ground I will get negative feedback of which I could take to dispute resolution where I feel I would ultimatly prevail. If I take the item back, I guarantee the buyer will demand that I also refund shipping AND pay for return shipping (been there, done that - every time). Thus on a $45.00 purchase I will have to pay $65.00 back the buyer. Now I have a customer who will probably still leave negative feedback AND I have lost $20.00. So it is not really a sale delayed, I will actually loose money in the process.

Saying that the customer is always right does not apply in all cases. From the consumer side, yes this is what you want all the time, you feel you got cheated and you want restitution. From the business side you know that the customer did not get cheated, they simply lacked critical information, that had they known this information they would know they were not cheated.

Those are my two options. Option 1, I loose. Option 2 I loose even more.

All I want from here is to know if anyone has knowledge of written documentation showing that Stanley did not originally put the model number on the shaft. When (if?) I have that information I will decide how next to proceed.

Re: You are right, but wrong

Derek Cohen (in Perth Australia)

>Jerry

If I were you, I would as briefly as possible state why you believe the two un-numbered chisels to be 750s, and offer him a $15 discount (which equals one of these chisels free) since the advert was not clear enough, or he can return the lot for a full refund. I thought $45 for the three was really cheap. This is now a steal. You are not going to make money here, but if he accepts I think you will not lose either. He will also now leave positive feedback.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Re: You are right, but wrong

mikew

>Hi Jerry,

I agree with Derek. Offer a simple statement as to why they are 750s and also offer a discount. One, the statement gives your side of it. Two, the refund should appease and is cheaper than a full return.

An unfortunately experience. If you do receive them back, selling them seperately with better, clearer pictures and descritions as per Todd would possibly net you more money.

I thought they were a great price, btw.

Take care, Mike

Re: You are right, but wrong

dave caudill

>Send off an e-mail to Patrick Leach who did the Blood and Gore on Stanley planes and ask the question to him and then send it along with your reply. Or John Walter the author of the Stanley Price guides. You are right you may be in a lose lose situation but guyd like this aren't worth worrying about. I'm sure they have a history of this type of behavior and no matter what you do they aren't going to be satisfied. Sometimes these folks come with a permanent burr under their saddle and nothing you do is going to dislodge it. Its unfortunate that you have to deal with it.

One thing I have found in the last few years of chasing tools is nothing is written in stone. Type studies are suspect at best. Stanley and for that matter all of the other tool manufacturers from decades gone by had no idea that someone would be worked up over a Stanley 750 chisel not having a 750 stamped on the socket 70 years after the fact. Or God forbid that they combined sets of chisels different years logos or put a type 9 blade in a type 11. We all have seen it and its just part of the game. Sometimes it makes it more intriguing and for good conversation. Other times it makes a guy on e-bay go ape.

Good luck with resolving it. Just remember all of the good customers and good sales you have had and will have in the future.

Dave

Re: Stanley Chisel Identification

Steve Reynolds

>Jerry, I would like to know a little more about your information on these chisels. For a few years I have been trying to determine what all the different markings on these chisels are, and how they are related. Coincidentally, I have a running harassment of Todd whenever we discuss this because whereas I normally agree with everything he says, I think he is whacko about these chisels and the defective and Defiance speculations.

You say you have seen very little written references for the old tools, so I am wondering how you came to the conclusions you did about Stanley marking their tools with model numbers, and about the Defiance markings? Stanley marked every tool, with few exceptions, with a model number. The early blockplanes and some benchplanes did not have model numbers, but they did by the turn of the century. They marked everything clearly with the full "Stanley" name, or the name of the cheaper line, or no marking at all. I have never seen anything with just an "S" for Stanley, a "V" for Victor, an "F" or "FS" for Four Square, or a "D" for Defiance. I speculate the unmarked tools were sold to hardware stores. It seems implausible in the extreme that they would mark just these chisels with a "D" and expect customers to know they were either defective, or a part of the Defiance line. I have few Stanley references myself, but Todd has quite a few and as of the last time we discussed this, he has not found a catalog entry for Defiance chisels that match the No. 750. It seems implausible that Stanley would sell the exact same chisel in both their high end line and their low end line and not make some distinction between them. All the Defiance tools I am familiar with are clearly marked with the Defiance name and are clearly inferior tools to the Stanley counterpart.

You also say that, "Every study of old Stanley tools that I have seen has identified the tool by its characteristics, not just what was stamped on the tool. Stanley was just not consistent in uniquely identifying their tools." This is inconsistent with what I see. Except for really old blockplanes and benchplanes, every Stanley tool I have seen is clearly marked with the Stanley name and model number, and every type study I have seen for a specific tool is done by model number (e.g. the 9 1/2, No. 45, and No. 55 type studies as printed in the Walter Guide). The benchplane study is not specific to a model number, but that is because it greatly simplifies the matter to assume the whole line got the same changes at the same time. Could you give an example of any other study that is done by characteristic and not by the marking on the tool?

Regards,

Steve

Re: Stanley Chisel Identification

dennis mcdonaugh

>In my opinion, it is a 750 only if it says 750 on it. I have seen no verifiable, printed reference which you can use to verify or dispute that an unmarked chisel, which looks like a 750, is in fact a 750. Chisels stamped 750 bring more at auction than an unmarked chisel so clearly the market thinks the same thing I do. In my opinion, you sold two unmarked stanley chisels and one 750 and represented all three as 750s. You should offer to take back the chisels.

Re: You are right, but wrong *LINK*

Todd Hughes

>First if you think this guy leaves you a negative ebay will do anything about it and you will get it removed...well you are in store for a rude awakening. Ebay will not and can not do anything about such things. You can ask for a dispute mediation but neither side is bound to anything and they will not remove a feedback

I can see your point if after all you were selling a Stanley type 3 no. 5 the plane would not be marked with a no. 5. Have to admit to not knowing for sure when the numbers were put on the chisels but you could be right that it was the early ones that were not marked, I do know that Everylasts and some other older Stanleywere not marked. I'm looking at an old 1929 Stanley catalog and it shows thier 440 chisels and while identifyed as 440s in the catalog the illustrations show that they are not numbered.

...But all this is sort of beyond the point since with these chisels the number is part of thier vaule and numbered ones are more desirable. While maybe Stanley considered them the same buyers today do not. Sort of like maybe more like a plane made in 1930 compared to one made in 1950. I hate to say it like this but when you have an auction on the ebay you really have to make it "Idiot" proof. While you, me and most others can read your add and understand what the markings are on the chisels a buyer with less experance may not understand and this is who you have to write the add for. While your photos are very nice showing front and back views I have to point out that I would not be surprised if sombody didn't win the auction and think they should be getting 6 chisels ! I know but lots of bidderes just don't read the auctions very well...Once sold a tote describing it as "For a Stanley no. 5,6,7, or 8 plane" Guy sends it back because he thought he was bidding on 4 totes! not just the one I photoed and described. In this case i refuned his money but I did not pay the postage since i don't think it was my fault. This is what i suggest you do. I think it is a better tack to take to point out to the buyer that you described the 2 markings and didn't say they had 750 but only the one did. Will have to admit the auction was a bit confusing with the chart thing but you did describe it that way and he can't really denial. Think this is a better approach then telling the buyer the unnumbered chisels are the same as the numbered ones [after all you did point out the differences in the auction.] Tell him even though the mistake was his you will still take them back but that he should pay the postage.I would think he would have a hard time auguring with that and chances are he will just keep them instead of paying the postage

While off the topic a bit...I never use a "buy it Now" to sell stuff because I think with most things it leads to it selling for less. If you think about it the only reason a buyer uses a buy it now is because they think they will get the item cheaper that way...and they are probably right. Also I think if you list the chisels seperatly you would do much better. I would not be surprised at all if sold seperatly these 3 chisels would go for well over double what they did.

Here is an auction I had for an un numbered Stanley that i thought did pretty well and I think I presented it so that the buyer could not make any mistakes as to what he was getting. Sorry no photos but I took them down already. Was a nice chisel but nothing real special....Todd


My un numbered chisel

Re: Stanley Chisel Identification

Jerry Nordby

>O.K. The two chisels are marked. Stanley on one line and Made in USA on the other line. If they are not from the 750 line then what model are they?

Re: Stanley Chisel Identification

Todd Hughes

>....I don't know but I don't think i have ever seen a Stanley everlast with a number marking on it and have had quite a few older Stanley chisels like thier 450s and don't think they were marked either...though they were identifed as to numbers in thier catalogs. It is a curiosity and I will be the first to admit to not having the answears....hope someone comes up with them because i would like to know too.

....Hey Steve..got to get.... have some rare planes to clean up , you know the ones you missed Sat?...neener ,neener, neeener...beep beep!...Todd

Re: Stanley Chisel Identification

dennis mcdonaugh

>Jerry, I'd say they are probably exactly the same as the 750s, but made for a hardware store line or something like that. As a user, they are probably no differences between the two. However, a marked 750 chisel sells for more than an unmarked chisel. Your buyer bid on the assumption all three were marked 750. He might have bid less or not bid at all had he known two were not marked. Whether he should have known what he was bidding on before he bid is a different story.

Re: You are right, but wrong

Jerry Nordby

>1. If a dispute it opened by one party and the other party refuses to participate eBay will delete the feedback. I have read TONS of feedback from others and have seen this clearly listed. If both parties agree to dispute resolution and the matter is settled and agreed upon by both parties the custom is for both parties to mutually agree to withdraw the feedback.

2. I agree that the auctions must be as idiot proof as possilble. I also believe that you can never make anything idiot proof, as idiots are just to ingenious. I will be very happy when I am able to stop selling my tools on eBay. I am disabled and without income. I have had to sell all of my collection (execpt for the tools I activly use) just to put food on the table. Selling on eBay is a pain I could just as soon do without.

3. These three chisels were listed separatly on eBay for three consecutive weeks as separate auction. They were listed as a true auction with a starting price of $9.99 and no reserve. In three weeks I never got even one bid. Any person could have bid the minimum and walked away with all three chisels for $30.00 but none did.

I have tracked prices on ebay for close to a year. In fact I have a database that recorded every Stanley plane sold on ebay for a little over 11 months. I tracked the plane number, assigned a condition rating as per the Fine Tool Journal Plane Condition Rating System and final sale price. I did this both to be able to set my prices, as well as selling the report itself on eBay for those 11 months. While I did not keep a database of every chisel sold I did keep a spreadsheet of spot checks on their actual sale price. This is where I derived the prices I put on the tools I sold.

3. My knowledge has come from experience. I have participated in tool swaps long before the internet was ever concieved. It is through this experience that I speak. I know that not all of it is true. I have seen where someone has uncovered a piece of information that was contrary to what the community thought. That is just the nature of any thing that is old.

4. If as people say Stanley clearly marked the model on all their tools then why do two of the chisels clearly state "Stanley" on one line and "made in USA" on the second line. There is no other marking of any kind on the chisel. The fact that these two chisels do NOT have a model marking is evidence that Stanley did not mark all of the chisels with a model number. I have a full set of both 750's and 720's. On some of the chisels the model is marked and on some it is not.

5. To those who say that the two chisels that are not marked with a model number, if they are not 750's then what model are they?

Re: You are right, but wrong

Ernie Miller

>I don't know Todd if you have an average tool and list it at the upper end of the price range for that tool a buy it now will move it fast to some one who wants somthing now and don't like to wait for an auction to end. The problem I do see is it may drive the price down on the nice tools that are up for auction. I never list two of the same item in the same auction period to keep people from going to the lowest of the two items at the time.

Re: Stanley Chisel Identification

Jerry Nordby

>Man o Man has this opened up a can of worms. But it is probably good. Hopefully good solid information will come forth that is of benefit to all.

As I have said before my expertise is born of experience. I have been wrong before and will be wrong again in the future.

It has been my experience that Stanley made tools for just about every other seller of tools. However, I have never come across a tool that Stanley made for someone else and left the Stanley name on it. All the ones I have seen were labled with the company logo that Stanley made them for. This is different that making a tool and having a company retail it to the public. For example, Stanley made the planes for Sears. Sears sold them to the public as their Craftsman line. While Stanley made the plane, it only carried the Craftsman name. This is the case for every one I can remember where Stanley manufactured the tool for some other company.

Re: Stanley Chisel Identification

dennis mcdonaugh

>I understand what you are saying Jerry and I agree with your suppositions and theories. However, as a consumer, I would not pay as much for a chisel, no matter how much it looks like a 750, that isn't stamped 750 on the socket. That's my bottom line. As for your auction, I don't think you were hiding anything since you specifically say one is stamped 750 and two are not. The problem you are dealing with is e-bays feedback system. It all sticks whether its fair and accurate or wildy exaggerated and totally fabricated.

Re: Stanley Chisel Identification

Kurt Loup, Baton Rouge

>Below is a picture of some of the Stanley chisels I have. Each one has a different stamp on the socket. From left to right the stamps on the sockets read:

Made in USA,

Stanley Made in USA,

Defiance by Stanley No. 1250 Made in USA,

Stanley No. 750 Made in USA,

Stanley D Made in USA,

Defiance Made in USA,

and Stanley 720 Made in USA.

The shape is nearly the same on each.

Kurt

It is a matter of definition.

Paul Kierstead

>You have defined a particular sort of chisel made by Stanley to be a 750. Your customer (who is not alone in this) has defined a Stanley 750 to be a chisel which is stamped 750.

Now you can argue till your blue in the face that it is the same chisel, but it doesn't meet your customers definition of a 750. It isn't a matter of right or wrong, but one of definition.

To be honest, if it was me as a total novice chisel buyer, perhaps having plowed through 100 chisel listings, I might have missed the rather subtle fact that 2 of them were not stamped 750. Me, being who I am, would chalk it up to experience, but would probably be wary of doing business again with you, since I personally don't want to have to read every word to understand what I would be getting. It would be much better to have clearly stated that 2 of them are not stamped 750 but are, in fact 750's. I don't believe you mislead the fellow on purpose, but nonetheless he was mislead, and at least understandably so. I understand your fustration since the facts were available, but coming to some place in the middle would be much better for you both.

Re: Stanley Chisel Identification

dave caudill

>I suppose this might be like the Disston saws that are obviously a #7 but are not marked and the medallion is Warranted Superior. We all know its a Disston #7 but does the guy who has less knowledge or experience know this? I know Disston made many saws for Hardware firms that were the same saws saying Disston just without the marks. They also made lesser grade saws for those same firms. As a chisel nut I'd be perfectly happy with those without the #750. Alls you have to do is look in the Walter's book to realize there were only so many models and a 750 is a 750 mark or no mark. However the guy is stuck on this so let it go. He got a deal as far as I'm concerned. I paid $75 for a newish set of 3 a couple years ago and was quite happy to get them.

Dave

Re: Stanley Chisel Identification

Dennis McDonaugh

>Dave I understand what you are saying, but the fact remains that a saw with a warrented superior medallion will sell for less than one with a genuine Disston medallion. A bidder who wins a Disston saw will not be happy if it arrives and its a warrented superior instead.

Re: Stanley Chisel Identification

Thomas Williams - Columbus Ohio

>I have been looking for such a source for some time and have not turned up anything. Sorry I cannot help with that.

However, in reviewing your ebay listing, I do not think you hid the ball here. The description was fair, and the photos OK, and you have disclaimed any warranty. The buyer could have made an inquiry before he bid, especially since you pointed out that the inscription did not include the no. 750.

Ebay is a buyer beware market.

Re: You are right, but wrong

HC Sakman @ Victoria, BC

>"I will actually loose money in the process"

This, is called "cost of doing business". If you're doing one off sale, your point may be understandable, but if you're in it for long term, losing $20 is far, far better than having customers less than fully confident by your less than perfect reputation, which is caused so you wanted to prove a point. Unfortunately people pay more attention to the negative feedback rather than finding out what your point was. (which is in a very gray area in my opinion.)

I mean, both of you are right, really. Though at the end, both of you are dissatisfied. That's why this matter is in gray area.

Is it worth $20? You know your situation and future plans first hand, It's up to you.

Chico...