Hand Planes?

Re: Hand Planes?

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>Sure, plus a few saws and chisels. The planar and jointer are the easiest power tools to go without for hand tool users; although a lot of us still use a band saw.

Pam

Re: Hand Planes?

ThomD

>It depends what you intend to achieve in the shop. Purely for self-entertainment, then I would recomend against any power tools. If you have a production goal in mind primarily, like breaking out enough wood for 2 46' spars, machines will help. But even more modest things like a house full of furniture over the next dozen years, may also get you on the power side. Will everybody be happy if you are just fooling aorund in the shop, or does the little woman expect some evident results.

I fell into the deep end of the power tool pool when I was faced with buying a bench ready made, or buying an Inca jointer/planer for the same money. The hard part is that what cost 6000-10000 25 years ago (current dollars), now costs about 300, so it's even tougher to turn the electric apprentice away at the door. The small power planers are suprisingly effective, particularly compared to hand planes. However start down that path and you end up with a lot of tools and dust. Any tool you don't buy becomes the one thing you spend the most of your time doing and so you spring for the next tool.

Re: Hand Planes?

Moses Yoder in White Pigeon, MI

>16 x 12 would be a very small shop, but could be very comfortable. If you were planning on building kitchen cabinets, you could easily build one at a time and then move it into the house. You could use a hand saw or band saw instead of a table saw, and use hand planes instead of the jointer and planer very easily. But like Thom said, you probably wouldn't get much work done. But I think if one learned to be really efficient at hand tool use, you could get a substantial amount of work done and lots of great excersize as a bonus.

Re: Hand Planes?

Angus Barclay, in New Zealand

>Yes, you can use hand planes and go without a powered planer and jointer. Its just a question of whether you want to be an artisan or a factory worker.

Woodworkers used handplanes for centuries until machinery was invented. And thousands of them have continued to do so for a long time after machines were invented too. They've recognized that hand tools can form the basis of a very efficient and sensible way of woodworking.

Yes, thicknessing and truing wood with hand planes does take a little longer than using powered machines. But it can also be a lot more satisfying. It is also better for your muscles (from the exercise) your ears (quieter) and your lungs (you make chips and shavings not nasty dust).

I would say that hand planes are better for the soul too, because you get the satisfaction of developing and using a set of worthwhile skills instead of just feeding a machine. The skills you need are relatively easy to develop to a workable level. It may take several years to become 100 per cent expert but you can build a genuinely productive and useful set of skills (reading grain direction, marking, sharpening, planing) within only a few weeks. Maybe less if you find a good teacher.

Extensive use of hand tools provides you with an understanding of wood and feeling for its vagaries that you just can't get from using power tools. If you don't use machines to beat the wood into submission you quickly learn to read the wood and work with it sympathetically. You learn about what really makes wood special.

The sensibly small proportions of your shop may end up being a real blessing. Big shops have room for all sorts of machinery and can end up looking like a small factory. But do you and your family really want a factory in your yard? And do you really want to work in a factory as a hobby?

regards

Angus Barclay

Re: Hand Planes?

Todd Stock

>No planer or jointer for 20 out of almost 30 years of doing this stuff. The only thing the tools do is speed things up a bunch - they don't really make things better. They also generate some serious chips and dust, for which the choice is a dusty shop or dust collection.

If your spouse is like mine, she will at some point push the execute button on a mathematically complex, multivariant calculation comparing return on investment in your hobby versus number/quality of various items received for birthdays, holidays, and no reason at all (aka bling-bling, which can be gold/silver/diamonds, but also a new set of Ping irons, silver S-Class, beach house at Kiawah, etc.).

You may possibly avoid the need for bling-bling (at least temporarily) if all of your projects are a) completed in a timely manner without trashing the house, b) make the home living environment better, and c) are objects of admiring comments by friends and family (extra points if her friends offer to trade their spouses in on you, and you are a solid 5 or below, and their spouses are 7 or better).

But seriously...try some stuff without the jointer and planer (optional anyway - just buy the wood planed), and see how it goes. You can always buy tools later, after building the jewelry box to hold the bling-bling.

Re: Hand Planes?

Bob R.

>My new shop is 8 x 14. I just sold my jointer and dust collector and am currently selling my planer and bandsaw. I have not used them in awhile but have not missed them yet. But I don't do production work. Mostly one off stuff.

Re: Hand Planes?

Patrick Gibbons, Houston, TX

>I don't have either but I'm fooling myself if I claim to be doing it the "the Neander way". I buy most of my wood surfaced. Here in Houston I can get that done for very little dinero where I buy my wood. So in affect I am using a planer and a joiner though it is someone else who is doing the work. The cost has been much cheaper than the outlay of capital for even the cheapest of machines and I've found it hard to justify buying the two machines. There have been discussions here on this board that one can use hand planes for flattening one side (the usual job of the joiner) and using a planer for thicknessing the stock. If I do break down and buy these two tailed devils, I would still use hand planes to achieve an acceptable surface. I will also comment that surfacing a plank by hand and getting it done right requires better skills and, for me, is a very slow process. I still have much to learn.

Re: Hand Planes?

Dan Clermont in Burnaby

>Hi Charles,

Welcome to the Clubof small shops. My shop measures about 13' x 13'

I got by for years with just handtools and added a bandsaw to help me out about two years back. Recently I added a power planer which I use to thickness stock once I have flattened the initial side.

All power tools are on wheels.

Cheers

Dan CLermont

Re: Hand Planes?

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>I recommend taking a class using these tools before committing the dollars, space, and time. That cured me of any desire to again use a planer or jointer, horribly brutal machines that more often than not waste expensive wood. What's more, they require a lot of care and feeding that's much more onerous than blade sharpening and the occasional sole flattening.

Pam

Re: Hand Planes?

Steve Mackay

>Sir; Well said ! Your not much the snob ! It is, sometimes, the journy - not the destination !

Re: Hand Planes?

Wiley Horne

>Charles,

What everybody says about 'yeah, you can do it all with handplanes'is true--provided you already know how to do everything, and are pretty good at it. In other words, if you already know the basics, you can progress rapidly.

But if you're just starting out, you're talking about learning what would in other days be learned in a 5-7-year apprenticeship, under the tutelage and daily example of highly accomplished journeymen and a master.

To try to learn everything required to do 100% handtool woodwork by yourself and all at once is like a python trying to swallow a pig. And to outfit a handtool shop so that you can actually build something is gonna be about as expensive as getting started in power tools, in my estimation (people will disagree with me on this, but I stand by it).

From where you appear to be right now, I would suggest that you get a jack-sized hand plane, sharpening gear (which can be expensive, by the way), and learn to tune your plane and sharpen the blade. Same approach with saws--buy a saw and learn how to sharpen it and use it. Same with chisels--get a couple. You don't need a set right now. And learn them.

Get the biggest and best bandsaw you can afford--you can rip and resaw if it's a good-sized one. And get a lunch box planer. Those are two tools with fairly small footprints that will do a lot for you, so you can have something to show for your labor and investment, sooner rather than later.

Wiley

Re: Hand Planes?

Dave Anderson Chester, NH

>Wiley's right about the cost of outfitting a complete hand tool shop. I have well over 4 times as much invested in my hand tools as I do in the powered stuff and I have a very mmodest set of the electron eating devils.

Re: Hand Planes?

Dan Clermont in Burnaby

>That is very true. It all starts out with one handplane followed by stones, and every one needs at least one nice plane.

I'd have to say that hand tools never end up being a cheaper as you just can't stop at one.

Dan Clermont (who blew a grand last year on hand tools last year at the local woodshow)

Disagree Dan

Todd O. Cronkhite Maine Native in FL. Exile :~(

>I'd have to say that hand tools never end up being a cheaper as you just can't stop at one.

Dan Clermont (who blew a grand last year on hand tools last year at the local woodshow)

Now Dan, you've got it wrong Dan, I say, I say, all wrong.

You spent a grand on handtools last year true, BUT how many tools did you get for that grand? 3-5? 6-10? Either way you got more than JUST ONE tool I'm sure, which for the same grand you'd been lucky to get one tool except for a lunch box planer which can be had for s a few hundred, BUT it only does one thing, unlike say for instance a handplane that can be used for a variety of things. Take that same grand and try to buy a decent jointer or tablesaw, and you'd be lucky to come in with anything left over and you still have only gotten ONE tool.

Dollar for dollar handtools is by far the best value in my book. I also beleive that with just a few common bench planes, saws, and chisels a WW'er can to allot of projects, and that there are ways around not having that "Specility plane" that is design for a specific purpose such as rabate planes. Sure the speciality planes are nice to have, but not having them is not a show-stopper

Todd O.

Re: Hand Planes?

David W. Dougherty

>While I do agree that one can spend just as much money (if not more) outfitting a workshop for hand tool work vis-a-vis power tool work, I do not agree that the learning curve is any harder. In fact, I think it's far easier to learn how to use hand tools correctly.

For example, learning how to saw correctly requires just a few hours of practice after some initial guidance. Sawing dovetails, tenons, dados, miters, etc., all by hand, leverages very basic skills. In contrast, just setting up a table saw for initial use can easily consume much more time than that spent learning how to do basic hand sawing (basic rip cuts and cross cuts).

Unfortunately, the misconception that hand tools are hard is pervasive.

Re: Disagree Dan

Dan Clermont in Burnaby

>For that grand I got:

- LN #8 jointerplane

- LN 140 skew Rabbet Block Plane

- LN 97.5 Chisel plane

- LN Mortise Chisel

- Rob Cosman DVD on Drawer making

So I got 4 tools and a DVD.

The problem with handtools is that you always want more or better ones even though you may have a tool that sort of does the job.

Prior to buying those tools I had a Bedrock jointer (replaced by the LN 8), Stanley 78 (replaced by the LN 140), CLN 140 Chisel plane (instead of just using a large chisel or plane blade)

So I didn't really need to buy the tools I bought however I consider the new ones to be better. Guess that is why we call it a slippery slope.

For power tools I own a Laguna Bandsaw that set me back $1500 Cdn, Delta 13" Planer ($225), Makita miter saw ($700), Router ($300). SO I own $2725 in Power tools and I would guess about the same in hand tools considering I have a pretty nice set of Berg chisels and some Bedrock and SPier's planes.

Cheers

Dan C

Re: Hand Planes?

Joe Rogers, Northern Virginia

>Oh heck yeah ...I belive that completely(the X4 cost comment) Just look at a picture of Daves work shop. Pure tool drool.JR

Re: Disagree Dan

Todd O. Cronkhite Maine Native in FL. Exile :~(

>So I didn't really need to buy the tools I bought however I consider the new ones to be better.

Ah Ha! Need being the key word here. No you didn't need the add'l tools, you merely wanted them. The question first posed by Charles was "Can I get by with just hand tools", and the answered is a resounding "YES"!

HOWEVER Charles, be Hereby and Henceforth Forwarned:

Guess that is why we call it a slippery slope.

-Indeed Dan, Indeed. ;~)

Todd O.

I don't think so

Jim in Burlington On

>Hand thickeness harder woods is horrible work. How anything was made of Maple before power tools were invented is beyond me. Even greats like Toshio Odate, Rob Cosman and Garrett Hack to name a few use power tools.

The joy of thicknessing

Angus Barclay, in New Zealand

>Have to disagree with you there Jim. Your description of the thicknessing task as "horrible" is obviously subjective.

I find that thicknessing and dimensioning wood by hand is quite satisfying. Watching the chips and shavings fly, smelling the aroma of the wood, listening to the sound the planes make, and seeing the gagued lines on the board split in two as I finish is part of the enjoyment of woodworking. I enjoy the journey as much as the destination.

I'm using hand tools to thickness some maple for my current project (don't own a powered planer or jointer) and find it every bit as satisfying as working with any of the species I've previously worked with.

regards

Angus Barclay

Re: Timber!

paul womack

>I found stock preparation on lignum vitae quite miserable. Probably because it was so hard it nicked and chipped plane blades that had perfectly judged bevels for every other timber I've ever had in my shop :-)

The piece was small (of course)

On the other hand, using a scratch stock to make mouldings in it was a joy - clean shapes and glossy surfaces on end grain!

The result can be seen here, attached wih screws to Alf's Record #043.

piccy link

BugBear

You win Todd!!!

Dan Clermont in Burnaby

>I had tools that I simply upgraded ;)

Just don't tell my wife

Dan Clermont

Are you aware that....

HC Sakman @ Victoria, BC

>...you can be blackmailed with this thread? ;-)

Chico...

Re: Are you aware that....

Dan Clermont in Burnaby

>Hi Chico,

My wife knows about the upgrading. She also knows I want a LN 4.5 Bronze. When she asked what that was gonna cost I didn't answer (I have no idea, and if it is too much I won't buy it)

I don't buy allot of tools anymore and spend most of my time trying to build projects so I can feel like I am putting my expensive tools to good use.

To be honest, I have a small shop and when I upgrade usually sell off the old tools they replaced cause I just don't have the room. When I tell her I want the LN 140 and am selling my 78 she understands and is very supportive. Same goes with my old 3/8" mortise chisel which was replaced with a LN

Some tools I am holding onto for the kids to use and a couple of nights ago had allot of fun watching my two year make shavings with a low angle spokeshave

Cheers

Dan Clermont