Is your plane iron too soft?

choosing a heat treater

bill tindall

>A quality heat treater will test the heat treated metal to see that it meets specs. The test takes but seconds to perform so it should be expected. Evidence of this control will be evident by the tiny dimple in the tool after heat treating. I would suggest you try Midsouth Metal 615 896 6212 and ask for Steve. they come highly recommended by the technicians at Crucible Products makers of CPM3V and other particle steels. We have used them with complete satisfaction.

Re: choosing a heat treater

steve knight

>thats the thing they test several irons and give me the report on them. so I ahve no clue how some of them have been too soft. I don't think it is a lot of them.

but I hope I don't have to ship them as we are talking about 100# or so of steel at once.

Re: Is your plane iron too soft?

paul womack

>. I just ordered more steel and hope to have another heat treater within three weeks.

If the guys who messed up are the same guys who've done all the good ones, I'd be inclined to talk to them, and try to get a deal cut.

If this is a one-off mistake, that they're prepared to correct. I'd investigate a little further.

BugBear

Good luck Steve

Steve Kubien

>To those who think they have a problem, be patient. Knight irons are among the finest around IMO.

Hope you get it sorted out soon.

Steve Kubien

Re: Is your plane iron too soft?

steve knight

>the warped irons is someone doing the job wrong once. but the random soft irons for the last three batches is a processing error that seems to be ongoing.

they did attempt to fix the warps but they did not get enough out for the irons to be usable.

Re: Is your plane iron too soft?

paul womack

>Yeah, sorry Steve; I saw you posted more details elsewhere.

BugBear

Heat Treaters

Jim Reed @ Tallahassee

>A good one is hard to find. Let me know if you are still looking. As for quality control, I stamp a batch number in an offcut of steel and send with each batch. Upon return of blades, I test each batch marker as well as a representative group of blades. It is a way of keeping quality problems in house. Good luck.

Re: choosing a heat treater

ThomD

>Paul Bos is well regarded. And is used by a lot of the knife makers.

If you have done 3000 blades you could consider getting a Rockwell tester. I know quite a few people who have testers on the basis of fairly small knifemaking businesses, they just are real interested in quality and usually do their own HT on carbon steel though I can't see the benefit of that if you are just running simple profiles.

http://www.grizzly.com/catalog/2006/Main/601

Re: Is your plane iron too soft?

David Jeske

>Steve,

Did Tony give any explaination as to the soft irons? I just picked up a big batch of marking knife blades and they certified them to my HT specs. I do a random sampling with a file and have not had any problems so far. I do not have an actual Rc tester though. They were all nice and staright. Are you using the new vacuum furnace for tempering? Do you hang your blades?

Dave

Re: Is your plane iron too soft?

George in Lowell, Mich.

>Steve

As a machinist/ toolmaker I too recommend that you talk with the heattreater they may have some insight as to how this can be prevented in the future. Sometimes when we have thin plates treated, we sandwich them between 2 thick CRS plates that are bolted together. This prevents the warpage for us. They may have other helpful ideas.

George

Re: Is your plane iron too soft?

steve knight

>Ihad not talked to them about the soft irons. I was too pissed at all the warped irons ant irons then finding the soft irons did not improve my mood. not too many of the irons are rc 55 unlike the paperwork states rc 60.

Re: Is your plane iron too soft?

Derek Cohen (in Perth Australia)

>Steve

This should not be your problem - don't make it your problem. It is the responsibility of your heat treater to provide the service that you contracted with them. They cannot put right what they do not know about. If they deny responsibility that is another matter. If they have been unreliable over a period of time, that is also another matter. However, if this is the first occasion, then give them a chance to make good. You can only gain at this point, not lose.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Re: Is your plane iron too soft?

steve knight

>well it became mine when I could not rely on the hardness. but I need to chew them out about that. I am not real good at chewing people out (G) mabye tomorrow I will do it.

Re: Is your plane iron too soft?

paul womack

> I am not real good at chewing people out (G) mabye tomorrow I will do it.

You don't need to. You just need to tell them the truth, clearly and explicitly.

And as I understand matters, the truth is that the blades are not to spec, and it's hurting you, both directly in dollars, and long term in reputation. Make it clear that this is a BIG problem for you, and that you WILL go elsewhere if they can't fix it.

Conversely, make it clear that if they can deliver consistently to spec, you'll be a happy, paying customer.

No need for anger. Contrary to some TV shows, not all business is about chest bashing alpha-maleness.

BugBear

Re: choosing a heat treater

philip marcou

>Hi Steve, I have only skimmed through the messages relating to your steel problem.

If you are not doing your own heat treatment then you are at the mercy of whoever is.

If you are going to supply lots of blades then I feel that you should invest in a hardness tester-one that uses the Rockwell C scale. Then you can test ALL the blades , the evidence will be there and it provides confidence for your customers.

Just my 50 cents worth.

Small digital heat treat ovens...

David Barnett - SW Florida

>...can be purchased for under a thousand dollars. These are very simple atmospheric ovens with inexpensive heating elements, usually surrounded with even less expensive firebrick held in a simple sheet metal and angle iron frame. The digital controllers are easily programmed to handle multiple segments for ramps and soaks. If you build your own oven (not too hard) and add a digital controller, you could probably have one for under 600 dollars.

When you do small batches of mostly the same kind of blade you can soon attain consistency and proficiency. If you're using O1, it's straightforward enough. A2 should be wrapped in SS foil and requires accurate temperatures, esp. for annealing ramps which these ovens easily handle.

I don't know your particular needs but I'd consider the economies of doing it oneself when you're looking at a few thousand blades ever few years. The tools I make are for myself are mostly used on softer non-ferrous metals; repousse and chasing punches, gravers, and so on. O1 or W1 work just fine and don't need oven treatment. But when I do bigger stuff, I just pop 'em in my glass casting kiln. The firing schedules for p�te de verre can be far more complicated and much longer than for tool steels and I managed with an infinite control switch (15 dollars) and digital pyrometer (80 dollars) when I was starting out. It was tedious but I learned a great deal this way. If you went that route, you could probably do it for under 300 dollars. I'd highly recommend a digital controller from the get-go, however.

Anyway, just something to consider.

6 word solution

bill tindall

>Take a hard and "soft" blade to heat treater. Present blades and say, "please check hardness on these pieces" No further conversation necessary. They will either graciously check, discover the problem and resolve it, or not. If not, then your only recourse is to find another heat treater. Chewing them out is not an approach that will lead to the best long term solution.

Re: Is your plane iron too soft?

Paul Kierstead

>Hear hear. I have found that a clear, polite explanation and request for correction will usually get the job done very well. Give them the oppurtunity to correct the problem and save face. If that doesn't work, appeal to them via your need. If that doesn't work, demand correction. If that doesn't work, move on. Actually, if step (1) doesn't work, I typically move on right away (if it is feasable); if you pay them and treat them well, it shouldn't require a lot of effort to get them to deliver what they should, life is too short for the leveraging crap.

Re: choosing a heat treater

steve knight

>if I did them myself then I would be at the mercy of myself (G)

Re: Small digital heat treat ovens...

steve knight

>I have thought of doing them myself. but it is not really practial. one is the time to do 120 irons. is 150.00 that much to spend when you figure the time and hassle it would take me to do it? it's bad enough just making the irons as is since I don't care that much for metal work.

then the smell my shop is in the basement of a old wherehouse with no real ventelation. it's bad enough doing some marking knives and such.

but loo kat me with the arguments after I had problems (G) but I ahve went 6 years without any heat treating problems till now.

Re: Is your plane iron too soft?

steve knight

>I am a nice guy and only chew my kid out (G)

Re: Small digital heat treat ovens...

Tony Zaffuto

>I have a bench top digital heat treat furnace that my machinists use for heat treating tooling components. For one-off heat treating, it is fine. However, it is not geared for production!

There are times (depending upon what it is we are doing) that I will even out source heat treating, for the simple reason that a more consistent quality is achieved by a person or business that is doing whatever process full time.

I will add that I have done more than a few blades for my self and for a few others, and quality has been acceptable (maybe not up to Hocks' standard).

T.Z.

All completely valid reasons...

David Barnett - SW Florida

>...to continue sending them out, Steve. Cheaper, cleaner, and a whole lot less bothersome in your case, yep. Your discard rate to date is impressive. Hope you get this snag solved without too much more grief.

Re: All completely valid reasons...

steve knight

>it is a pain to do a bunch. with 1/4" irons they would heat up the oil pretty fast too. I would need a big container of it.

I guess 6 years without any problems is pretty good.