frame and panel case side question

Re: frame and panel case side question *LINK*

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>Don't know about PA Dutch drawers; but one easy way is to use center mount slides, such as the one Rockler offers. No reason you couldn't make this sliding dovetail yourself, but $5.69 is pretty cheap.

Pam


Rockler Center Mount Wooden Drawer Slide

Re: frame and panel case side question

Ted Shuck, Centennial, CO

>Bill,

I am currently making a frame and panel desk with 3 drawers. This is different from a chest of drawers, but I think that the concept of how I am making the drawer runners could be extended.

I am simply making the stretchers at the bottom of side panels extra wide so that they extend under the drawer space. If I were building a chest which did not have a panel for every drawer, with a corresponding stretcher, I would think about mortising or dovetailing the runners into the stiles. These runners would be like internal rails, behind the panel, which would give the case extra strength. They only need to extend into the case about 1/2" to serve as runners.

I would be reluctant to attach anything to the panels.

Regards,

Ted

Re: frame and panel case side question

Warren in Lancaster, PA

>Usually these chests had rather substantial corner posts which were about 1 3/4 inches square. The drawer dividers were tenoned into the posts. The runners could be tenoned into the dividers or sometimes the posts. The back can have the same construction.

If your side frames are made with 1 inch material, I would still tenon the dividers into the side stiles. The side panels aren't usually involved in the interior structure.

Re: frame and panel case side question

Adam Cherubini

>Never seen this in either of the two pieces I've looked at!

Seriously, there's a PA dutch hutch in Philly and the drawer runners are nailed to the vertical frame members as I recall (I may have a picture). I don't recall seeing kickers, I have made L shaped runners to help capture the drawer side-to-side-wise as it is moved. Such a feature was not present on the hutch as I recall.

It may well be that drawers weren't drawers to those people. A chest of drawers may have been more akin to a chest of storage boxes. This explains many things including the lack of kickers in some pieces, drawers too high to look into, flat bottomed drawers (lipped drawer fronts never overhung the drawer bottom), etc. My notion of drawers is based on Accuride full extension drawer slides. This may be an unrealistic expectation of drawer performance.

Adam

Re: frame and panel case side question

Warren in Lancaster, PA

>I won't disagree with you, Adam. I've seen this kind of construction as well. I've also seen stuff I wouldn't want to copy, like runners nailed to backing boards or glued to cleats on the backing boards. Also sometimes there are face frames which involved in the structure.

Dust Panel/Web frame to the stiles?

Dave Thompson - Champaign IL

>Hi Bill,

Haven't seen a PA Dutch chest of drawers, so that's just taking a SWAG.

On the pieces I've built, I just attached drawer runners to the corner posts (stiles) of the panelled frame.

Enjoy,

Dave

Re: Dust Panel/Web frame to the stiles?

Jim Crammond in Monroe, Mi.

>Bill,

I concur with Dave, at least that is the way I've done it, but then again I was not making Pennsylvania Dutch furniture. I built the base for my workbench this way, 5 rows of drawers with 3 drawers in each row. It made for a very interesting glue up.

Jim

More information

bill tindall

>I should have been more clear. I am doing a reproduction of the chest from the Winterthur collection, as best I can considering they would not let me measure anything or peek inside it. Pictures of this handsome chest have appeared in various publications. It dates from early 1700's. Similar, but simpler, chests are in the West Chester historical Soc, museum. There is nothing crude about these. Rails are dovetailed, complex moldings, line and berry inlay. Stiles for side panel are 1 1/8" thickness and about 3" wide with applied "double humped" molding on front edge. If anyone ever gets to peek into an original I would be most grateful for a report.

All this has me...

VTAndy

>... feeling somewhat homesick. I grew up in Lancaster and my grandmother lived in West Chester and at one point worked at Winterthur. Man, how Winterthur bored me to death when I was 12! Wish I could go back in time now...

-Andy

Re: More information

Warren in Lancaster, PA

>You have an interesting chest there, Bill. It is not at all what I imagined earlier. I can't make out the inlay patterns, but with those arched drawers it looks more like a Chester County chest rather than Pennsylvania Dutch. Do you know what town or what county it was made in?

I'm a little suspicious of the feet; they don't seem to go with the rest of the chest. As to the interior, I still think I would mortise the runners into the drawer dividers. For the smaller upper drawers, you have to use this type of construction anyway because in the middle of the chest there is nothing to nail the runners to.

Info from Winterthur on the piece

bill tindall

>Date between 1715 and 1750. Origin- Chester Co, probable. brass not original. It is displayed in PA Dutch room and catagorized as PA folk art.

The drawer dividers are attached to sides with sliding dovetail. I presume the runners are M&T into dividers. But, the panel does not provide lateral guide for drawer side and that is the problem to be solved. A flat sided case doesn't have this problem because the flat side serves as the guide. But in my case the panel is recessed about 1/4" which creates a 1/4 gap between side of runner and panel. Something must go in here, somehow, to provide a side guide from the drawer.

In retrospect I wished I had boldly slipped out a drawer in the Chester Co museum to see how they solved this problem. Maybe someone else will/has and report result.

Re: frame and panel case side question

ThomD

>I know what you mean about stuff one wouldn't want to repeat. Brings back the time that my dad and I took down some upper kitchen cabinets. A huge face frame unit in which we had stored lots of plates and applieances. Turned out to be held in place by two long nails in the plaster wall. Never budged.

Since you have gone to all this trouble to build a stable frame that won't expand you should be able to attach further frames or cleats without much efort, they are really quite minimal shear forces involved.

The only old piece I have in the house uses internal frames to support the drawers. One of these is nicely fitted at the top and appears on the surface of the piece as a devider. The lower drawers are flush and have lips that hide the frames.

The frames are pretty rougly made out of stock that was run on a moulder with grooves for dust panels that were not inserted. They are nailed and not mortice on the ends to form the frames. A modern varient might be bicuits. There isn't any racking so mortices are not necesarry. The hiden panels are notched to the inside of the corner post, while the one revealed is joined on the face. There are rubbed glue blocks to support the runs between the corner posts.

Re: Info from Winterthur on the piece

Warren in Lancaster, PA

>Between the small drawers there is usually a single runner wide enough for both drawers with a batten nailed on top to keep the drawers in line. The batten is as wide as the vertical divider between the drawers and about 1/2 inch high. Sometimes this is made in one thicker piece with a rabbet out of each side to achieve the same shape. The drawer runners at the sides you could make the full width out to the panel, cut out the corners where the stiles are, and tack on a small strip on top to guide the drawer. I've seen this on chests where there is a corner post wider than the rest of the side. You could also nail a strip to the outside edge of the runner that filled up the gap and extended slightly above the runner to guide the drawer. I hope this gives you some ideas.

solution attempted.....

bill tindall

>I will attach a filler strip to edge of runner. The bottom drawers are tall, so a less tall filler strip acting as a guide could result in excessive wear on the drawer side. However the panel stile will give full heigth guidance for the drawer at the front and back, so maybe my fretting about wear is not an issue. I would like to know for sure how this problem was solved in the original piece and the success of the solution which could only be determined by examination of the original.

And as you point out, I wonder if this chest had more to it on its bottom. The bottom looks quite crude compared to the detail for the rest of it.