Grinder vs. coarse sandpaper/waterstones

One way to do it.

Bob Hackett(Mainely,Bob)

>Here`s my take on it.

I grind only when I need to restore an edge that`s chipped or otherwise badly damaged.

I flatten the back starting with coarse grit sandpaper then moving to stones and finally to very fine diamond paste on a cast iron plate(although fine stones will do the same thing).

For the bevel I use the same approach starting with mid range stones as the grinder has already done for the bevel what the coase grit paper did for the back.

I use a honing jig as I have only one hand with any long term strength.I actually used one before my hand problem and recommend one as it`s an easy way to shorten the learning curve for a newbie and get consistant results for anybody else.

I`d think about looking up "The ruler trick" David Charlesworth uses to help avoid the pain of back flattening.

Don`t forget to hone the mating edge of the chipbreaker and polish the upper face so that chips don`t jam in the throat.

Hope this helps.

Mainely,Bob

Re: Grinder vs. coarse sandpaper/waterstones

Wendell @ Murphy, TX

>I use a large piece of glass (36" x 8" x 1/2" thick) with large sander belts glued down as my grinder. I use the Veritas Mk.II honing guide with belts to create a straight edge on plane blades and chisels. It's not as fast as mechanized system but I think it works faster than a course waterstone. I am still working on cambering blades. They only blade I've done so far was a scrub plane blade that already had the right camber factory ground. I haven't tried to establish a cambered edge from scratch yet.

Wendell

Here's how I do it *LINK*

ydb1md

>I made this . . . (see image)

And I've got one of these toolrests on the way . . . (see link)




tool rest

Re: Grinder vs. coarse sandpaper/waterstones

Warren in Lancaster, PA

>You can do all your work on bench stones. If the irons are horribly beat up or misshapen, you could get your friend to grind them to start you off. The bevel does not need to be hollow for you to feel it.

Re: Grinder vs. coarse sandpaper/waterstones

Dave Thompson

> Can the "grinding", as "establishing the primary bevel" be done on coarse grit sandpaper/waterstones instead of a power grinder or machine (like the lap-sharp). Or are the sandpaper methods and waterstones only for flattening the back of the iron and honing the edge?

You can do it with sand paper/water stone. Though I can tell you from personal experience this is only for one with lots of patience and fingers with lots of stamina. I went through a period of buying used chisels, most of which I ended up rebevelling. If you started with new chisels, that would not be as much of an issue.

I believe there are many methods that work well. The method I use is just because I'm comfortable with it, and have the equipment for it, not necessarily because I've tried many others. I initially chose sand paper over stones because it's cheaper, requires almost no maintenance and I can get a large variety of grits. I sharpen from 150-2000 grit. When I use to regrind a bevel by hand, I would use 80 or 100.

The first time I get a blade, I flatten the back going through the grits until I get a mirror shine on the back. The point isn't to get a mirror, but rather to remove any scratch on the back which may interfere with the edge. I only do this once. Afterwards, I'll either coat with wax or oil to prevent any rust on the back.

Regarding the bevel...

For my jack planes and light scrub, I just put the blades on my wet slow grinder, and then on a leather strop wheel charged with compound. It's quick and does a job just fine for a jack plane.

For my smoothers, I do the whole process using sand paper attached to 1/4" plate glass going from 150-2000. I hold the blade in a honing jig. I like not having to be concerned about wether I'm rocking the blade to far or not. Some will, for speed reasons, hollow grind their bevel and then do the sand paper or stone thing. When the sand paper fills up with iron fillings, I just run a magnet over the sand paper. Make sure the magnet is in a plastic bag or something similar so you can separate the magnet from the filings.

There are alot of write ups on the sand paper method, so I won't duplicate the details. It use to be better known as the "Scary Sharp" method, but people don't call it that any more. I'm sure goodle will come up with several nice descriptions.

enjoy,

Dave

Re: Grinder vs. coarse sandpaper/waterstones

paul womack

>A friend has been teaching me to sharpen plane irons. The method he uses is to first grind a hollow bevel on a grinder, then use waterstones to flatten the back and hone the edge. The honing occurs freehand. The point he made to me is that you can "feel" where the bevel is (when honing freehand) if the bevel is hollowed.

Yep. But in a bevel down (AKA normal) plane, hollowing grinding also weakens (narrows) the edge. Further, reliance on this method mean you often go back to the powered grinder to recreated the hollow, which means your precious tool wear down more quickly.

I still struggle to believe that anyone can "balance" a Bailey blade on the bevel, hollow or not. The ratio of bevel-blade length is just too extreme.

Fortunately, sharpening can be done (by hand) even if one can't do the above.

BugBear

Re: Grinder vs. coarse sandpaper/waterstones

Derek Cohen (in Perth Australia)

>...do you have to grind with a "machine" (grinder vs. sharpening machine) or can the "grinding" be done on coarse sandpaper or coarse waterstones instead?

Hi Andy

There are more ideas about grinding and sharpening that one can shake a stick at, so every answer you get reflects just one view, not the "best" view.

The short answer is that you can grind with a machine, sandpaper or waterstones. Note that grinding is simply to shape the basic, primary bevel, and is not designed to add the final stage of honing.

If you choose to grind on a machine, you can choose from a slow-speed wet grinder, such as Tormek (designed to avoid burning the metal), a half- or full speed dry grinder, or (my choice) a belt sander.

If you choose sandpaper, then begin with 80 grit. Glue a Zirconion Oxide sanding belt to a flat piece of glass. These belts last very well, longer than anything else.

If you go for a waterstone, you will need something in the range of a 220 (which is what I use).

The prospect of sharpening thin irons with flat bevels using freehand techniques... yikes.

My recommendation is to get the LV Honing Guide Mk II if you can afford it. Not expensive, but it is more than the others. It will be cheaper in the long-run and more versatile than the others as well. This will make your life less complicated, and you will be able to get on with woodworking. Later, should you be inclined, you can learn to freehand the blades. Stanley blades are quite a challenge in this regard since they are so thin.

There are just so many ways to hone a blade using a guide. Again my suggestion at this stage of the game is to keep it simple. The Stanley blades, being so thin and fairly soft, may be honed flat. I would not bother with a microbevel or a hollow grind. The only "advanced" technique I would add is to use David Charlesworth's "Ruler Trick" on the back of the blades. Do a search for this - there should be plenty of descriptions around.

Keep it basic and enjoy the shavings.

Regards from Perth

Derek

a hearty YES

bill tindall

>Can the "grinding", as "establishing the primary bevel" be done on coarse grit sandpaper/waterstones instead of a power grinder or machine (like the lap-sharp).

This question came up in our planing class. I snatched up a Stanely iron from his plane, mounted it in the Veritas jig and rubbed away with 100 grit zirconia paper mounted on 1/2" float glass (from the float glass plant across the river from me, gloat!). In about 2 minutes I had the bevel angle rightly established and was ready to carry on to finer grits. For the easily abraded Stanley irons 80 or 100 zirconia paper cuts about as fast as a power grinder at slow speed.

I think abrasive sheet ("sandpaper") sharpening is an excellent way to begin. It is cheap, quick and effective. I find a jig a must for this aproach, and remember to only PULL the blade. ( see discussion of technique in Articles section)

More details?

Dave Thompson

>Ok, Bill, I know there's got to be a trick here, because I think it would take at least two minutes if I used a dry grinder running at 3600rpm and not cared about the blade turning blue.

I once changed a 1 3/4" Witherby chisel from a ~33 degrees to 25 degrees, using (I forget now, but likely) 80-100 grit paper and a honing jig. This took me several hours (maybe 8) of work spread over a couple of days. I decided I was vastly undervaluing my time and vowed to never do it again. I picked up a Tormek soon after for this purpose.

Now that I think about it a bit, I suspect you're talking about changing the tip of a bevel to something higher angled (e.g. 25 -> 30). Going up in degrees would certainly be significantly quicker, and require far less metal to be removed.

Re: More details?

Derek Cohen (in Perth Australia)

>Yo, Dave - how can you compare a wide and thick Witherby blade with that of a Stanley?! All my Witherby chisels have some of the hardest steel I have experienced. A thin Stanley might indeed take a few minutes to grind on 80 grit.

I should have mentioned earlier a tip for speeding grinding on sandpaper. My glass plate is 1 metre long. I glue Zirconion Oxide belts across the full length. This produces 2 - 3 times the amount of grinding in one stroke that one would get on a short length of glass.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Re: More details?

Dave Thompson

>Yes, good point. I think I was keying off of regrinding a bevel rather than how much metal is actually removed.

Re: More details?

paul womack

>I should have mentioned earlier a tip for speeding grinding on sandpaper. My glass plate is 1 metre long. I glue Zirconion Oxide belts across the full length. This produces 2 - 3 times the amount of grinding in one stroke that one would get on a short length of glass.

Yep. Me too.

In addition, when doing "coarse" grinding, I use a hand vise to both provide a comfortable grip, allowing higher forces, and to make a longer composite object for better freehand bevel control (*)

http://oldetoolshop.com/olderiver/handvise0701.jpg

BugBear

(*) The longer an item is, the smaller the angle change subtended by a height change at the end of the tool.

Re: Grinder vs. coarse sandpaper/waterstones

William Duffield, on the Cohansey

>Why don't "people" call it ScartySharp� anymore? Is it because someone got sued for trademark infringement? It's not really a copyrighted or patented process, you know. Maybe the "bucket-o-mud" crowd decided to attack it as being "too cute", since they couldn't defeat the proponents of the concept on any functional or economic basis.

Next, they'll be whispering behind our backs that only grease monkeys and other metalheads use oil stones.

I can't even mention on this forum the politically unsavory implications one could make to the use of diamonds., but that don't have anything to do with sharpening.

I guess I'm not paying enough for sharpness if my stones say "Mirka" instead of "Shapton" or some mixture of kanji, hiragana and katakana characters that very few of us can even read. If that makes what I do "out of fashion", so be it. I'd rather spend my tool dollar on tools that either improve what I make, allow me to work more quickly, or at least improve the comfort of my working environment.

My tongue is planted firmly in cheek on this one, but I do try to keep one hand on my wallet at all times.

No trick

bill tindall

>1. Stanley irons are vastly easier to grind than A2, for example.

2.I had forgotten how fast an 80 or 100 grit zirconia abrasive removes metal from a Stanley iron. There were piles of metal on the paper, in a minute. Literally, I dumped a pile of metal off the paper when I was done.

3. I was increasing the bevel angle, probably 35 degrees to about 30.

4. I use 12" long strips and with a jig I can do many strokes per minute.

PS seriously, I would not bother walking over to the grinder for a stanley iron if I had the sandpaper already mounted and a jig handy. But, A2 and 3V are a much different story. I bench grind these metals, especially 3V where I won't affect hardness unless I get it above 1000 degreesF.

Yeah, stinkin trademarks...

Dave Thompson

>Why don't "people" call it ScartySharp� anymore? Is it because someone got sued for trademark infringement? It's not really a copyrighted or patented process, you know. Maybe the "bucket-o-mud" crowd decided to attack it as being "too cute", since they couldn't defeat the proponents of the concept on any functional or economic basis.

Yeah, I thought it was due to the pending lawsuits over the trademark issue. Wasn't there something about klingspoor being sued over using the trade marked name without first paying royalties to the burnt finger galoot consortium, or was it the hairless hand society of america that holds that trademark?

Safer to just call it "the sand paper method". Hey perhaps we can trade mark that name.... the SandPaPer-Method�

why I avoid the SS nomenclature

bill tindall

>I became annoyed by the attitude of the person that coined the SS phrase who claimed invention of a technique that was described in Fine Woodworking years earlier. I didn't think they should get to name something they did not invent.

Re: history  *LINK*

paul womack

>


http://woodbutcher.net/scary-origins.htm